Was Jesus referring to Yahweh/Jehovah or someone else???

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Replies

  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    It doesn't matter because in the scriptures I quoted for you with links it says that Yahweh was SEEN and HEARD.... Yeshua stated nobody has every seen or heard his Father.

    He said that no one present had heard him. Point out where he said no one ever had heard him.
    Thanks.
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    Lol

    Galatians 4:16
    Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

    Who has deemed what you say the truth. And tho you may like to think
    you rile people up, you dont. I see this the same as answering my 4 year old daughters questions.
    Not an enemy at all. I just see you like the dozens of people in my Humanities and Latin classes back in the day
    who left that semester with no faith left, because an educated man, like yourself, pointed out things that could
    be rebuffed, but they did not have the courage or faith to do so. I love it because it reinforces my own Faith.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    bignorm73 wrote: »
    He said that no one present had heard him. Point out where he said no one ever had heard him.
    Thanks.

    really?

    let the scriptures speak!

    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
  • One SpliffOne Spliff Posts: 5,346
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    It doesn't matter because in the scriptures I quoted for you with links it says that Yahweh was SEEN and HEARD.... Yeshua stated nobody has every seen or heard his Father.

    yes and i've explained why this was in the other thread.

    the OT was recorded/copied and interpreted by men, not to mention israel had fallen to idolotry at the time the OT was recorded by ezra, i explain this.

    also its a style of wiriting...for exmaple...

    EXODUS 24:9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

    12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them


    notice in the 10th verse it says god(elohim/angel) but later in the 12th verse it reverts back to lord (yhwh)...


    we both know the most high YHWH doesn't have the shape or form of a man and can not be seen, just like jesus stated.

    so this is either a personal interpretation from the recorder, or just the style in which it was written.
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    really?

    let the scriptures speak!

    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

    All those are about sight. Post one about voice.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    One Spliff wrote: »
    yes and i've explained why this was in the other thread.

    the OT was recorded/copied and interpreted by men, not to mention israel had fallen to idolotry at the time the OT was recorded by ezra, i explain this.

    also its a style of wiriting...for exmaple...

    EXODUS 24:9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

    12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them


    notice in the 10th verse it says god(elohim/angel) but later in the 12th verse it reverts back to lord (yhwh)...


    we both know the most high YHWH doesn't have the shape or form of a man and can not be seen, just like jesus stated.

    so this is either a personal interpretation from the recorder, or just the style in which it was written.


    then you are basicly saying your Bible is the Word of Men... I'm just working off the scriptures as it is and not off speculation at the moment.


    PEACE
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    then you are basicly saying your Bible is the Word of Men... I'm just working off the scriptures as it is and not off speculation at the moment.


    PEACE

    When Homer put centuries of oral tradition on paper,
    who was the author of that work?

    Homer, or the people who told him?

    If god speaks to/inspires you to write words,
    when those words are put on paper, whose words are they?

    If i tell you a story, and you write it,
    are those not still my words? or are they yours?

    If god told the authors to write, they are still gods words man.
    NOt the words of man. Man's inperfections can get into the work, because man is not perfect.
  • One SpliffOne Spliff Posts: 5,346
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    then you are basicly saying your Bible is the Word of Men... I'm just working off the scriptures as it is and not off speculation at the moment.


    PEACE

    the original scrolls of the prophets and scribes no longer exist, the closet u will get it the dead sea scrolls, not to mention the translation into english.

    if you have a time machine and cango back 3500 years to the time of moses, then please do...then u can come back n translate for us, otherwise ur guna need to use common sense....

    of course it was written by men, thats why it has so many contradictions and errors...i explained this in the other thread....but with knowledge and common sense u can put together the peices of the puzzle.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    bignorm73 wrote: »
    All those are about sight. Post one about voice.

    I've shown u that scripture already...
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    One Spliff wrote: »
    the original scrolls of the prophets and scribes no longer exist, the closet u will get it the dead sea scrolls, not to mention the translation into english.

    if you have a time machine and cango back 3500 years to the time of moses, then please do...then u can come back n translate for us, otherwise ur guna need to use common sense....

    of course it was written by men, thats why it has so many contradictions and errors...i explained this in the other thread....but with knowledge and common sense u can put together the peices of the puzzle.

    i agree with most of what u say... it has been through many hands and the Roman empire.
  • Disciplined InSightDisciplined InSight Posts: 12,872
    edited December 2011
    bignorm73 wrote: »
    Thread needs theme music.

    Underrated song and video.
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    I've shown u that scripture already...

    No you havent. You showed a post where he was talking directly to a group of people.
    The other scriptures, in which it was clear he was talking to humanity, are about seeing Gods true form,
    not a burning bush, etc.

    You also know that when you go into the Hebrew, that that language is much more specific and descriptive than english.
    That if he wanted to say it to all of humanity, he could have. But he said a form of "you".

    So i ask again, point out a scripture where he tells humanity that we have never heard God's voice.
    And since the bible had several verses that often talk about the same point, post a few.

    Thanks.
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    Underrated song and video.

    Love that song. I dont even like to come in here, cuz its just educated trolls. smh.
    but that leap dude made, i had to say something.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    bignorm73 wrote: »
    No you havent. You showed a post where he was talking directly to a group of people.
    The other scriptures, in which it was clear he was talking to humanity, are about seeing Gods true form,
    not a burning bush, etc.

    You also know that when you go into the Hebrew, that that language is much more specific and descriptive than english.
    That if he wanted to say it to all of humanity, he could have. But he said a form of "you".

    So i ask again, point out a scripture where he tells humanity that he have never heard God's voice.
    And since the bible had several verses that often talk about the same point, post a few.

    Thanks.

    As u say he says nobody ever seen god at any time

    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

    And here no one has heard the voice of God or seen his shape. He is giving a witness and notice HE SAYS AT ANY TIME

    John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    As u say he says nobody ever seen god at any time

    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

    And here no one has heard the voice of God or seen his shape. He is giving a witness and notice HE SAYS AT ANY TIME

    John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    Again, he uses Ye. But i am talking about voice, you, sight.
    Its clear that God does not reveal his true form to humans. That is not a point worth arguing.
    He can reveal himself and be seen, without you seein his true form.
    But this voice thing you keep harping on, there is no proof of that. The bible is full of instances
    where god speaks to his people. And you cant make it seem like its not, by showing one verse where
    he is talking to a group of people. And it is true, that group of people had not seen god at any time.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    bignorm73 wrote: »
    Again, he uses Ye. But i am talking about voice, you, sight.
    Its clear that God does not reveal his true form to humans. That is not a point worth arguing.
    He can reveal himself and be seen, without you seein his true form.
    But this voice thing you keep harping on, there is no proof of that. The bible is full of instances
    where god speaks to his people. And you cant make it seem like its not, by showing one verse where
    he is talking to a group of people. And it is true, that group of people had not seen god at any time.

    No matter what u say the scripture speaks for itself

    Yahweh was SEEN and HEARD.

    Jesus says his Father was NOT seen or heard at any time.

    That scripture was Jesus BEARING WITNESS of the Father not directed to 1 person becuz it never indicates if he was speaking to a certain person. It was a general statement.
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    No matter what u say the scripture speaks for itself

    Yahweh was SEEN and HEARD.

    Jesus says his Father was NOT seen or heard at any time.

    That scripture was Jesus BEARING WITNESS of the Father not only directed to 1 person becuz it never indicates if he was speaking to a certain person.

    a group is not a certain person. Seems like you are saying that it is open to the readers interpretation.
    I agree with you. Because when you come in here with " no matter what you say the scripture speaks for itself"
    i agree. It does. It speaks that he was not talking about all time or all humanity. He was saying that in that time,
    that generation of people had not heard from the father directly or seen him. Which is the reason for his arrival.


    Sucks when it dont work for your angle huh?
    Anyone can take any writing and do this.
    Its not profound. Ill come back in here tomorrow and debate you somemore if you like.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    bignorm73 wrote: »
    a group is not a certain person. Seems like you are saying that it is open to the readers interpretation.
    I agree with you. Because when you come in here with " no matter what you say the scripture speaks for itself"
    i agree. It does. It speaks that he was not talking about all time or all humanity. He was saying that in that time,
    that generation of people had not heard from the father directly or seen him. Which is the reason for his arrival.


    Sucks when it dont work for your angle huh?
    Anyone can take any writing and do this.
    Its not profound. Ill come back in here tomorrow and debate you somemore if you like.

    the scriptures already refuted you so there is no debate. Jesus says God NEVER was seen or heard but the Old Testament differs.
  • bignorm73bignorm73 Posts: 5,031
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    the scriptures already refuted you so there is no debate. Jesus says God NEVER was seen or heard but the Old Testament differs.

    Scriptures dont refute me, you do.

    I pointed out what the scriptures say, and the form of the word you that was used, and the context he used, talking about present day.
  • waterproofwaterproof Posts: 8,872
    edited December 2011
    bignorm73 wrote: »
    Scriptures dont refute me, you do.

    I pointed out what the scriptures say, and the form of the word you that was used, and the context he used, talking about present day.

    Brother bignorm you done schooled beenfooled the father turn his back to him for his wickedness, you ended this 2 pages ago but im going to jump in if you dont mind.

    Im going to go post to post and show how he is a fool, he taked those list on the first page from a website and those people like him dont have no knowledge of scripture.


    and Im going to end this thread, i see beenfooled use this

    John 5 :37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.


    as his main agruments and i try to give him time but I WILL SHUT HIS ASS DOWN LIKE I ALWAYS DO BECAUSE HE DONT KNOW OR READ AND KNOW ABOUT THIS VERSE.

    but first im going to answer some other bullshit lies and expose his ass again
  • waterproofwaterproof Posts: 8,872
    edited December 2011
    beenwize wrote: »
    In the Bible the Old Testament God Yahweh/Jehovah is described as having hands, feet, back parts, and a face... How can someone who is suppose to be an "invisible spirit" have these attributes?

    Also in the Old Testament Yahweh/Jehovah was in the Mount with Moses and many ppl heard his "voice" and Moses seen his shape.

    In the New Testament Jesus NEVER mentions the name Yahweh and always refers to "Abba, Father" Jesus also states that the Father that sent him we have NEVER seen his shape nor heard his voice at any time... So if the shape of Yahweh was seen and his voice heard in the Old Testament then who is he really? And who is Jesus referring to?

    BELOW Jesus says we have NEVER heard or seen the shape of the Father that sent him.

    John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


    BELOW are some examples of Yahweh/Jehovah being seen and heard in the Old Testament and being described as having hands, feet, face and back parts. Keep in mind that he is being describes as having BODY PARTS and not invisible like the Father Jesus was referring too.

    Deuteronomy 5:24
    And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

    Exodus 33:22-23
    And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

    And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Exodus 24:10
    And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

    And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

    Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

    Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

    Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

    Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

    Deuteronomy 4:33 Has any other people heard the voice of God speaking out of fire, as you have, and lived?



    Im going to save John 5:37 for last because it's to easy for a person who's know scriptures


    BELOW are some examples of Yahweh/Jehovah being seen and heard in the Old Testament and being described as having hands, feet, face and back parts. Keep in mind that he is being describes as having BODY PARTS and not invisible like the Father Jesus was referring too.

    Deuteronomy 5:24
    And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

    Exodus 33:22-23
    And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

    And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Exodus 24:10
    And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

    And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

    Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

    Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

    Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

    Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

    Deuteronomy 4:33 Has any other people heard the voice of God speaking out of fire, as you have, and lived?



    ok Beenfooled list these, first all Brothers and Sisters now take your time and look at these verse and tell me anywhere you see that Jacob aka Hebrew israelites say they seen YAHUWAH FACE??

    OK, so the Messiyah Yahushua was correct he is the only one seen his face.

    It seem's that beenfooled dont know the difference from his likeness from his face, Yes Yahushua is the only one seen his face.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    waterproof wrote: »
    Im going to save John 5:37 for last because it's to easy for a person who's know scriptures


    BELOW are some examples of Yahweh/Jehovah being seen and heard in the Old Testament and being described as having hands, feet, face and back parts. Keep in mind that he is being describes as having BODY PARTS and not invisible like the Father Jesus was referring too.

    Deuteronomy 5:24
    And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

    Exodus 33:22-23
    And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

    And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Exodus 24:10
    And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

    And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

    Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

    Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

    Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

    Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

    Deuteronomy 4:33 Has any other people heard the voice of God speaking out of fire, as you have, and lived?



    ok Beenfooled list these, first all Brothers and Sisters now take your time and look at these verse and tell me anywhere you see that Jacob aka Hebrew israelites say they seen YAHUWAH FACE??

    OK, so the Messiyah Yahushua was correct he is the only one seen his face.

    It seem's that beenfooled dont know the difference from his likeness from his face, Yes Yahushua is the only one seen his face.

    Lol the Old Testament God had been SEEN by his back parts, feet, and hand. Moses was also in the mount with Yahweh for 40 days when they say Yahweh WROTE the 10 commandments by hand. The scripture below did not mention the face. It says nobody had seen God at any time but Moses seen him in the Mount. They seen his shape, feet, back parts, and hand.


    John 1:18
    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    1 Timothy 6:16
    Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Exodus 33:11
    And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

    Exodus 24:10
    And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

    And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.




    How can you be seen with hands, feet, and back parts but be invisible at the same time?

    1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 1,976
    edited December 2011
    waterproof wrote: »


    ok Beenfooled list these, first all Brothers and Sisters now take your time and look at these verse and tell me anywhere you see that Jacob aka Hebrew israelites say they seen YAHUWAH FACE??

    OK, so the Messiyah Yahushua was correct he is the only one seen his face.

    It seem's that beenfooled dont know the difference from his likeness from his face, Yes Yahushua is the only one seen his face.


    If Yahweh and Jesus are the same then what about this?



    Old Testament - YAHWEH

    Numbers 21:5
    And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

    And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.



    New Testament - JESUS

    Luke 11:11
    If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

    Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

    If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
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