Is Mike Tyson A All Time Great?

Du_Du

it wasn't even that he lost focus, he lost his corner... he was in his early 20's like 21 or 22, and you fire his entire corner, and bring in inferior trainers?? you have a kid who wwas taught and trained in the perfect system for his physical talents, and you bring in a bunch of don king yes men who just make him run and spar...

there was no more training, no more learning, no more technique, no more discipline, no more anything that produced this phenom....

shit was a disgrace to boxing....fighters aren't great fighters on their own.....they absolutely need a great corner as well.....

you give a 22 year old great like tyson a bullshit corner and he gets ko'd by buster douglas...

he keeps his original corner, and it's a whole different future... moore, holyfield, lewis...there's no telling how things woulda went......if you can't see an immediate difference after the spninks fight when he changed trainers....then i have to say you're just not watching closely enough...

chi-guy

Haul Judos wrote: »

it wasn't even that he lost focus, he lost his corner... he was in his early 20's like 21 or 22, and you fire his entire corner, and bring in inferior trainers?? you have a kid who wwas taught and trained in the perfect system for his physical talents, and you bring in a bunch of don king yes men who just make him run and spar...

there was no more training, no more learning, no more technique, no more discipline, no more anything that produced this phenom....

shit was a disgrace to boxing....fighters aren't great fighters on their own.....they absolutely need a great corner as well.....

you give a 22 year old great like tyson a bullshit corner and he gets ko'd by buster douglas...

he keeps his original corner, and it's a whole different future... moore, holyfield, lewis...there's no telling how things woulda went......if you can't see an immediate difference after the spninks fight when he changed trainers....then i have to say you're just not watching closely enough...

Agreed, he should've kept Rooney in his corner. He was the last person to have Tyson's respect. I blame Don King for alot of the issues Tyson had. I wish Tyson would've stuck with his original managmement. I believe the guy's name was Bill Cayton, he did alot for Tyson early on in his career

The Lonious Monk

It really depends on what your definition of All-time great is. I mean there have been hundreds of pro boxers and dozens of champions in the past century or so. Even if you simply consider him top 25, I still think that would qualify him as an All Time Great.

That said, I've always thought the "Who did he fight?" argument is stupid. People try to make it seem like Tyson fought nothing but bums and all the other greats fought world class comp. But what happens when you evaluate the records of his opponents against those of the others? Let's just look at one example.

Tyson's opponents - 1301-211 (86% win percentage)
Ali's opponents - 2027- 382 (84% win percentage)

Going by this, overall, you could argue that Tyson's opponents were better than Ali's. Yes, Ali had more big named fights than Tyson, but the logical mistake that many make is to assume that means Ali fought better fighters. The problem with that is that a truly dominant fighter will never have any big named battles because he'll dominate anyone he comes across. People look at the Ali-Frasier battles, and say Tyson isn't as good because he never had that in his career. But if he was just that much better than everyone else, it stands to reason he wouldn't. People will say Tyson never fought a George Foreman. Foreman was 40-0 when Ali fought him. It's true that Tyson never fought someone with that exact record, but he completely dominated Spinks who was a 31-0 champion at the time. Ali's accomplishment seems more profound because Foreman was a beast that required a long and drawn out plan from Ali to take him down. Is that really more impressive than Tyson going in and completely and easily dominating a man who had never been defeated?

I'm not saying Tyson is top 5 or even top 10, but let's not act like his competition was so inferior to that of other great fighers. And let's also keep in mind that it is possible that the reason some of these other guy didn't get to shine and become considered great was because Tyson existed. Hell, even Holyfield and Lewis didn't really make names for themselves until Tyson was out of the picture.

Du_Du

i also trip off of tyson critics mentioning he didn't have stamina.. but if you watch pre spinks fights...dude went 12 a few times,....and dominated on pure skill, ring generalship and aggression...even when he couldn't get the KO tyson was still just scary good

NothingButTheTruth

All-time great to me means top 10 EVER, so HELL NO!!! He didn't beat anyone!

R.D.

lmao at 56 noone's

The Lonious Monk

Haul Judos wrote: »

i also trip off of tyson critics mentioning he didn't have stamina.. but if you watch pre spinks fights...dude went 12 a few times,....and dominated on pure skill, ring generalship and aggression...even when he couldn't get the KO tyson was still just scary good

Exactly. People always say Tyson could never have dealt with a fighter like Ali, but forget he dominated Tillis for 10 rounds. Tillis was basically Ali lite. I'm not saying that Tyson could have done that to the real Ali, but it's not like he was unfamiliar or unprepared for the style.

Du_Du

The Lonious Monk wrote: »

Haul Judos wrote: »

i also trip off of tyson critics mentioning he didn't have stamina.. but if you watch pre spinks fights...dude went 12 a few times,....and dominated on pure skill, ring generalship and aggression...even when he couldn't get the KO tyson was still just scary good

Exactly. People always say Tyson could never have dealt with a fighter like Ali, but forget he dominated Tillis for 10 rounds. Tillis was basically Ali lite. I'm not saying that Tyson could have done that to the real Ali, but it's not like he was unfamiliar or unprepared for the style.

and i know people HATE tyson friazer comparisons.... but let's be very realistic for a second here... considering tyson's age and his direction... the comparisons are more fair than anything had tyson had been allowed to progress with the corner that produced him..

and what fighter gave ali more fits than any other boxer??? fraizer...


and it's very arguable that tyson had fraizers power, aggression, and stamina.....add tot hat his speed and explosiveness....
i just can't see how people refuse to place tyson in the all time conversation....

tyson was boxing's biggie smalls or big L....dude just stopped way to early to show us what he was truly capable of....

it's so hard watching tyon after they took rooney and company out of his corner

(which reminds me...rooney is still doing those $60 training sessions here in bmore...guess it's time for me to get back in the gym)

UPTOWN CONNEXX

themadlionsfan wrote: »

UPTOWN CONNEXX wrote: »

themadlionsfan wrote: »

Douglass shattered his aura of invincibility

seee here we go again... your saying douglas is the better fighter?? LOL

youre saying that douglass beat tyson straight up but in a previous post you just said all the shit about how don king came in and blah blah blah

tyson beat hisself by his non boxing decisions, you even acknowledged it. douglass did not "beat" tyson in the way that Ali BEAT Foreman

point out where I said Douglass was the better fighter?.....I'll wait....my point (which you missed).....was once he hit the canvass his aura of invincibility was shattered....regardless of all turmoil surrounding him.....folks wanna make excuses for Tyson's downfall but don't wanna admit he was not mentally strong enough to make a comeback.....oh and for the record....Tyson and Holyfield were supposed to fight before Tyson went to jail in 91

---

Tyson-Holyfield, ‘91
The greatest heavyweight fight that never was


By Stafford Attzs
FightBeat.com Contributor

It’s said one never gets over grief… just gets used to it. Perhaps hyperbole, but it’s the perfect description of my feeling about the scuttled 1991 Mike Tyson-Evander Holyfield fight, when Iron Mike went to prison.

It was the most significant boxing match-up -- of any division -- since Ali-Frazier I, “The Fight of the Century”.

The build up:

Tyson, the youngest heavyweight champion in history, cleaned up the division after Muhammad Ali’s the retirement. He was the undisputed bad boy of boxing. He froze opponents with fear, like no other fighter since Sonny Liston.

Who could forget the shocking power of his second-round TKO coronation over Trevor Berbick? One punch sent the defending champion to the canvas three times. Barry Tompkins’ words still ring in my ears, “That’s it, that’s all! We have a new era in boxing!”

And new era it was.

The Legend of Tyson was born. We had a real-life Clubber Laing. There was a new king in town and he ruled with an iron fist.

It was the golden era of heavyweight boxing -- challenger after challenger was decimated. Respected former champs and titlists, like Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks and Pinklon Thomas were flattened for the first time.

Top contenders didn’t know whether it was an honor or a death sentence to face him. One by one, they were annihilated: Biggs, Tubbs, Bruno, Williams. Tyson wasn’t the king of the heavyweights; he was the emperor.

Then came Tokyo. The impossible happened. The dragon was slain. Yet, so forbidding was Tyson’s aura, boxing fans refused to accept it: That wasn’t the real Tyson. He was overconfident and under-trained. It was his failed marriage. The real Mike Tyson could never have lost to Buster Douglas.

Douglas may have had the title, but Tyson was still the champ to the fans. He left no room for doubt, devastating Henry Tillman, Alex Stewart and the once feared Donovan “Razor” Ruddock.

The exiled king returned with all his firepower -- still in his prime, and his kingdom was anxious to receive him.

However, when it was time to re- claim what many felt was rightfully his, there was a new king on the throne, who knew not the power of the Dragon – one who destroyed Tyson’s conqueror with a single blow, one with an Olympic pedigree, a chiseled physique and the heart of a lion, one who was the undefeated, undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the World -- a title only synonymous with Tyson. He was called, Evander “The Real Deal” Holyfield.

From the instant the former cruiser titlist leaned back to avoid Douglas’ uppercut -- deftly countering with a picture-perfect right to rip the title away, there was no doubt, he was no paper champion -- no one-hit wonder. He was for real – tough, smart, fast…The Real Deal!

He was the true king, according to the law of the commissions, according to the law of succession and according to pugilistic definition.

An ill-prepared Tyson may have loaned Buster Douglas the belts, but Holyfield was in possession of them, and they looked very comfortable on his broad shoulders. There was the sense; he’d rather die than give back what was rightfully his.

And so, like Ali-Frazier I before it, the lines were drawn: Tyson had no legal claim until he defeated Holyfield. Evander would not be accepted by the fans until he defeated Iron Mike. The stage was set for the most significant clash since 1971.

Then it was cancelled.

I remember thinking, “The fight was too good to be true. It couldn’t happen. Both were champion. How could one win and the other lose?”

It was like the old Greek fable where an inescapable hound was sent to catch an “uncatchable” fox. The God Zeus looked down from Mount Olympus and decided to turn both creatures to stone, for as he said, ‘the paradox was so powerful that it would destroy the very fabric of the universe.’

It was an appropriate parallel: Both men were in their primes. Tyson still had the speed and the menace he had in the mid to late ‘80s, witness his two victories over Donovan Ruddock. He seemed invincible.

Evander was a proud champion who’d demonstrated speed, skill and heart. Most importantly, he didn’t know defeat, and he had the talent to match his desire. Tyson was hungry. It had all the earmarks of a fight for the ages.

The battle would have ebb and flow -- Tyson’s power, speed and ferocity against Evander’s stamina, skills and valor. It would’ve gone the distance…perhaps a split decision.

Holyfield was my pick, and remains so.

Of course, they eventually fought twice. Those battles should have made up for the ‘91 fiasco. But they don’t tell us how the ’91 fight would have gone, nor did they have the same mystique. The landscape was different.

After a few years in prison, Tyson was a completely different animal, physically and psychologically. Holyfield had been defeated, KO’d and ten pounds heavier.

Holyfield surprised the world with his total domination of Tyson. But we’ll never know how a 207-pound Holyfield in ’91 would have fared against a peak Tyson.

For my money, Tyson-Holyfield ‘91 was the best heavyweight fight that never was.

We were robbed of a classic. The “inescapable” hound and the “uncatchable” fox are still frozen in time.

The Sly One has Spoken!!

because they way your wording your points .... your saying douglass shattered tysons aura of invincibility. im saying that tyson let his own skills diminish by his non boxing decisions, and then everyone wanted to see if they could catch tyson on a bad night

props for the article but you didnt have to dig that up i know tyson and holyfield were supposed to fight. i believe an injury postponed it and then the rape case deaded it completely.


but it still proves my point. WHERE WAS HOLYFIELD BEFORE TYSON LOST HIS TITLE. WHERE WAS LEWIS ALSO??

you can say tyson fought all lesser fighters but somehow his resume is better than the fighters he lost to after his prime. tyson is better than lewis and holyfield because they refused to fight him until after the fact. smh at holyfield losing to moorer and then beating him by decision. tyson FUCKED moorer up twice hands down

TYSON IS TOP 5 FIGHTERS EVER

top 5 career??? no

top 5 all time??? yes

NothingButTheTruth

I forgot where we were.

Let's put this in perspective...

To the casual fan, Tyson is top 5 (and I'm being generous, he's probably top 1 or 2) and can go toe-to-toe with Ali in his prime, and every other heavy weight that would beat the fuck out of Tyson.

To the fan with even the slightest boxing knowledge, Tyson is not a top 10 boxer, and he's definitely not an all-time great. Brand does not equal skill.

Du_Du

NothingButTheTruth wrote: »

I forgot where we were.

Let's put this in perspective...

To the casual fan, Tyson is top 5 (and I'm being generous, he's probably top 1 or 2) and can go toe-to-toe with Ali in his prime, and every other heavy weight that would beat the fuck out of Tyson.

To the fan with even the slightest boxing knowledge, Tyson is not a top 10 boxer, and he's definitely not an all-time great. Brand does not equal skill.

a fan with the slightest boxing knowledge would know the impact of a good corner on a championship fighter....

Du_Du

shit's just crazy....


put it like this...

look at phil jackson and the triangle system.....

that's basically how kevin rooney was with the "peek-a-boo" system....


the "peek a boo" system worked perfectly with tyson's athletic advantages... kevin rooney along with atlas were students of cus d'amato..and they knew the system because they were students of the system....tyson's trainers after rooney didn't know that shit at all...

they just weren't capable of bringing the best outta tyson... dudes fundamentals and skill set dropped dramatically after they fired rooney...


dude was only 22.....


22....a 22year old boxer is still a sponge.....he's still growing and getting better.....at 22 tyson was forced to abandon the system that got him to the top....


i really don't think people fairly access tyson or realistically wrap the idea around taking a 22 year old kid and making him fight a different way that was less effective than everything he knew.....add to that the new found celebrity status, and don king having more access and control to him where as his handlers before kept those guys at a distance....

at 22 you're supposed to take what made you great and grow, build off of and fine tune that shit...

there was no fine tuning tyson...sadly enough we never got a chance to see the "best mike tyson" had to offer......

imagine if rooney stayed with him through his entire 20's...we woulda saw tyson get better from the night he beat spinks......

and anyone with even the slightest boxing knowledge can see he got worse the second he wasn't under rooney anymore...

Du_Du

i mean honestly to the skeptics.. you don't have to take my word for it, just google tyson and rooney.....

you can spend all morning looking at articles where boxing experts, writers bloggers and the like have all said pretty much the exact same thing in support of tyson's career...

yes many people and critics feel tyson woulda declined due to his mental state eventually..... but i and many others disagree....i think he woulda gotten better...

R.D.

lol this topic got du heated

Du_Du

R.D. wrote: »

lol this topic got du heated

i've been catching feelings in tyson debates since i was like 15.....,

i'm 29 now.. so that's 14 years of fine tuning my argument to the point where this shit just rolls off my tongue like a scripted speech....

i took it easy in this thread...

RawAce

when niggas puttin ice water in latex gloves and callin themselves a cornerman ,yeah
i can honestly say that your career got fucked over

them niggas wasnt lookin out for tyson

RawAce

and yeah
if yall watch the movie Tyson where Mike jus open up about everything u can see that Cus dying killed him

he said he aint take the Douglas fight serious cause all he was thinkin bout is gettin out the ring cause his dick was burnin

nigga silly
"i dont know if i had sex with a prostitute or jus a really dirty girl"

most honest interview I ever seen

KNiGHTS

vageneral08 wrote: »

KNiGHTS wrote: »

Smh@this bum shit. The dudes he fought were top fighters at the time. He suffers from the Roy Jones complex in that he made his competition look weak as fuck.

You can't be a top 10 WORLD ranked boxer and be ass. People make it sound like he was at the Golden Gloves beating up kids.

So in that case you're saying roy jones isnt all that great either

No, in that case, I'm saying Roy Jones made his competition look weak as fuck, and Like Jones, people underrate Tyson overall because his peak is legendary.

People rank Roy as a fluke because he was a superior athlete, overlooking the fact that every great in a sport is a superior athlete. For example, if I said, "Michael Jordan was only as good as he was because he could out jump everyone. When he lost his athleticism, he got exposed as having no technique," you'd call me retarded. Meanwhile, boxing analysts and forum pundits the world over will type, "Roy was a good fighter who had amazing speed. Once that was gone, he got exposed." Same shit about Tyson but in reverse order: "He had amazing technique, but once he quit working, he got exposed as having nothing but athleticism."

Mike is a great. What comes after his peak doesn't change that.

vageneral08

KNiGHTS wrote: »

vageneral08 wrote: »

KNiGHTS wrote: »

Smh@this bum shit. The dudes he fought were top fighters at the time. He suffers from the Roy Jones complex in that he made his competition look weak as fuck.

You can't be a top 10 WORLD ranked boxer and be ass. People make it sound like he was at the Golden Gloves beating up kids.

So in that case you're saying roy jones isnt all that great either

No, in that case, I'm saying Roy Jones made his competition look weak as fuck, and Like Jones, people underrate Tyson overall because his peak is legendary.

People rank Roy as a fluke because he was a superior athlete, overlooking the fact that every great in a sport is a superior athlete. For example, if I said, "Michael Jordan was only as good as he was because he could out jump everyone. When he lost his athleticism, he got exposed as having no technique," you'd call me retarded. Meanwhile, boxing analysts and forum pundits the world over will type, "Roy was a good fighter who had amazing speed. Once that was gone, he got exposed." Same shit about Tyson but in reverse order: "He had amazing technique, but once he quit working, he got exposed as having nothing but athleticism."

Mike is a great. What comes after his peak doesn't change that.

Ok so besides B-Hop who did jones beat worthy of enough to be a HOF? (james toney was trash when he fought jones) I'm not denying dude skills but just like niggas doing with tyson....who did he fight?

R.D.

vageneral08 wrote: »

KNiGHTS wrote: »

vageneral08 wrote: »

KNiGHTS wrote: »

Smh@this bum shit. The dudes he fought were top fighters at the time. He suffers from the Roy Jones complex in that he made his competition look weak as fuck.

You can't be a top 10 WORLD ranked boxer and be ass. People make it sound like he was at the Golden Gloves beating up kids.

So in that case you're saying roy jones isnt all that great either

No, in that case, I'm saying Roy Jones made his competition look weak as fuck, and Like Jones, people underrate Tyson overall because his peak is legendary.

People rank Roy as a fluke because he was a superior athlete, overlooking the fact that every great in a sport is a superior athlete. For example, if I said, "Michael Jordan was only as good as he was because he could out jump everyone. When he lost his athleticism, he got exposed as having no technique," you'd call me retarded. Meanwhile, boxing analysts and forum pundits the world over will type, "Roy was a good fighter who had amazing speed. Once that was gone, he got exposed." Same shit about Tyson but in reverse order: "He had amazing technique, but once he quit working, he got exposed as having nothing but athleticism."

Mike is a great. What comes after his peak doesn't change that.

Ok so besides B-Hop who did jones beat worthy of enough to be a HOF? (james toney was trash when he fought jones) I'm not denying dude skills but just like niggas doing with tyson....who did he fight?

lmaoooo @ James Toney being trash in the prime of his career

dawgggg shut up

MR.CJ

james toney was trash?

both james and roy was undefeated when they fought

james was 44-0 and roy was 26-0

chi-guy

MR.CJ wrote: »

james toney was trash?

both james and roy was undefeated when they fought

james was 44-0 and roy was 26-0

Agreed, Roy fought James at a time when they both had something to lose and both of them were crushing the competition in and around their weight class. And the wins Roy had over Toney and Hopkins look more impressive in the historical sense when you look at what Hopkins and Toney went on to accomplish after those fights

themadlionsfan

James toney trash?!.....wooooooow

dwade206

UPTOWN CONNEXX wrote: »

dwade206 wrote: »

UPTOWN CONNEXX wrote: »

dallas' 4 eva wrote: »

In Your Moms Room wrote: »

ParallelRhymes wrote: »

In Your Moms Room wrote: »

All time great? No sure. Top 10, yes. He was a beast no doubt. He didn't fight anybody though. He's a pit and he was fighting weiner dogs.

how is somebody a top 10 all time but not an all time great....

I already said. You have to be top 3 to be an all time great imo. Tyson isn't top 3.

I understand it's your opinion, BUT boxing has been around far too long and had far too many great boxers to limit all time greats to three. It's pretty asinine to think you can honestly.

he's an idiot LOL

shit you can take three fighters out of one weight class alone

basically, white ppl dont like mike tyson. thats the real reason for his racism ... i mean ... opinion lol

...since when do White people dislike Tyson? There are too many smart/dumb niggas commenting on this science and after I schooled you in that last boxing thread, I thought you would learn something and study yo art. But no, here you are, looking ignorant as usual when it comes to boxing. Stick to posting ass cheek pics, nigga.

dwade206 wrote: »

UPTOWN CONNEXX wrote: »

the last thing ill say to prove my point in this thread


lennox lewis and evander are "great" because they beat tyson. but if tyson isnt good how are they great for beating him??

white ppl take certain blacks that they dont like and no matter what those blacks can never be great. see floyd mayweather jr, see tyson, see malcom X, see how they say ancient egypt is the "middle east" instead of africa .... the hate goes on and on. and then you got these europeanized negroes who take the same views because they feel uncomfortable around there white masters being associated with these "type" of black ppl

in tysons first year of boxing no man was left standing and no man made it out of the 4th round in a fight with him

in his second year he became the youngest heavywieght champ ever.
lennox lewis and eveander holyfield are both older than tyson. yet niether of them fought him before he went to jail or before he became champ. but tyson was the one ducking them?? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

...aight cool, thanks, you can shut the fuck up now and stay in Ill Pix.

LOL listen to how mad you are. i ignore niggas like you youre more interested in why i deleted some thread of yours than having a convo about boxing

get the FUCK off my dick you dick head nigga.

this stupid FUCK really is gonna sit here and argue that mike tyson is the fucking ppl's champ in the WHITE community?? LOLOLOLOL damn son you should never be that mad at an internet screen name. you think because they put mike tyson in the movie "the hangover" singing phil collins songs that they love him or some shit???

why dont you just tell me the real reason why you're mad??? you white?? LOLOLOLOLOL

he quoted me twice before i could even answer. dayummmmm you madddddddd!!!! LOLOLOL

this is the maddest i ever had a nigga on this board LOLOLOLOL

Of course, use the "you mad" tactic when all logic has failed. You're the one resorting to childish remarks like "dickhead" "you white" (which I'm not), and "dayummmmm you mad." Listen, I call it how I see it. As I said, you have a talent in posting ass cheek pics, so stick with what your good at. You sound ignorant when you speak on topics such as boxing because you become emotional and you know as much as a casual fan. Also, I never said Mike was the "ppl's champ" in the White community. But of course, when emotions are involved people write out of anger. It's ok, calm down. I'm sure there's a gang of Rosa Acosta pics available to post.


...and that's how you set a child straight without resorting to emotion and name calling

MR.CJ

chi-guy wrote: »

MR.CJ wrote: »

james toney was trash?

both james and roy was undefeated when they fought

james was 44-0 and roy was 26-0

Agreed, Roy fought James at a time when they both had something to lose and both of them were crushing the competition in and around their weight class. And the wins Roy had over Toney and Hopkins look more impressive in the historical sense when you look at what Hopkins and Toney went on to accomplish after those fights

yea roy has 2 atg wins on his resume