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Let's Talk About: Demonic Possession & Exorcisms

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Replies

  • zombiezombie Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .IRS. wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    No, you cannot compare the two. you cannot compare something that is graspable to something that has no relation to anything physical. Unless you have experienced the un-physical how can you describe it. and even if you do experience the un-physical you can only describe it in physical terms. all Things we talk and think about has a relation to some thing else that can be described with our senses. religion described god's reactions to man and the universe but not god itself, anything else you can put in a box but not god.
    This is how I see you two are babes in christ, the least you could have said was "well is there any proof for the mind? can science locate this thing we refer to as 'the mind'?"

    If by "the mind" you mean human consciousness then no science has not definately found it but some do believe that it is in the brain. THis whole thread boils down to two viewpoints : 1) the universe is both physical and un-physical, man exist as both, in which case things like life after death experiences and heaven hell and astral projections of all sorts become reality. 2) The universe is all physical and reality is what it seems man's " mind" is nothing more that chemical reactions in the brain and nothing else.

    If man is both physical and unphysical that that means man can be divided a body can be made empty and then filled with the mind of something else for example a demon.
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    How are they short sighted? You are here the same way I am here. We are here; mankind is here because of past actions, causes and conditions that shaped our current existence.

    But what caused these current conditions? do you believe that the universe and everything in it always existed? if you do that is called the solid state universe theory and that theory has been proven wrong by science.

    I believe that existence has always existed, whether that existence be a past universe that caused ours to exist or some other cause or condition. I believe nature has no beginning or end

    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    .IRS. wrote: »
    So if unicorns don't exist, its gonna pretty hard for me to find proof of it not existing, in fact, the lack of proof is the proof.

    The difference between god and a unicorn is that one has a frame of reference a unicorn is a horse with a horn on it's head you can describe it in physical terms the same goes for santa the easter bunny and anything man can accurately describe. the same cannot be done with god.

    Religion has made the attempt to describe god enough to base a system of faith and following. The descrptions are obviously enough for you to trust that he exists but instead of a unicorn or physical entity, we could replace it with any spiritual being for comparison

    No, you cannot compare the two. you cannot compare something that is graspable to something that has no relation to anything physical. Unless you have experienced the un-physical how can you describe it. and even if you do experience the un-physical you can only describe it in physical terms. all Things we talk and think about has a relation to some thing else that can be described with our senses. religion described god's reactions to man and the universe but not god itself, anything else you can put in a box but not god.
    zombie wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    .IRS. wrote: »
    So if unicorns don't exist, its gonna pretty hard for me to find proof of it not existing, in fact, the lack of proof is the proof.

    The difference between god and a unicorn is that one has a frame of reference a unicorn is a horse with a horn on it's head you can describe it in physical terms the same goes for santa the easter bunny and anything man can accurately describe. the same cannot be done with god.

    Religion has made the attempt to describe god enough to base a system of faith and following. The descrptions are obviously enough for you to trust that he exists but instead of a unicorn or physical entity, we could replace it with any spiritual being for comparison

    No, you cannot compare the two. you cannot compare something that is graspable to something that has no relation to anything physical. Unless you have experienced the un-physical how can you describe it. and even if you do experience the un-physical you can only describe it in physical terms. all Things we talk and think about has a relation to some thing else that can be described with our senses. religion described god's reactions to man and the universe but not god itself, anything else you can put in a box but not god.

    I'm not the person that describes the un-physical. Theists generally do that so those questions are really for you to answer.
    If everything we talk about exists in relation to something else, god must exist in the same way. If he does not, how are we to be aware of his existence?

    No one can describe the un-physical hence no one can describe god in the way we can describe a unicorn. God is not a thing so he does not exist in relation to anything else so we cannot talk about him like we can anything else, it is impossible. We don't really talk about god what we talk about is mankinds reactions to what we perceive of him. He exist on the power of himself. EVERYTHING WE TALK ABOUT EXIST IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD HAS A RELATION TO SOME THING ELSE BUT GOD IS BEYOND THIS WORLD.

    If god does not exist in relation to anything else, it would be impossible for him to create or interfere with our world
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • zombiezombie Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    How are they short sighted? You are here the same way I am here. We are here; mankind is here because of past actions, causes and conditions that shaped our current existence.

    But what caused these current conditions? do you believe that the universe and everything in it always existed? if you do that is called the solid state universe theory and that theory has been proven wrong by science.

    I believe that existence has always existed, whether that existence be a past universe that caused ours to exist or some other cause or condition. I believe nature has no beginning or end

    you are free to believe that but many scientist and believers in god would disagree with you.
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think youll find many scientists that will tell you there was a point where true nothingness existed indefinitely. Most scientists if not all abandoned the theory that nothing existed b4 the big bang
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • PremeerPremeer Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    100 Prime wrote: »
    How are they short sighted? You are here the same way I am here. We are here; mankind is here because of past actions, causes and conditions that shaped our current existence.

    lol again...

    so your a believer in evolution.. so what did we evolve from.. some species of the ape family.. and what did they evolve from.. and so on and so forth.. then go back to the very 1st species (we are just using your logic here.. or illogics.. ) go back to the very 1st species.. now how did that VERY 1ST species get here...... and everything else in this world... universe.. dont you find it amazing how everything in the universe is connected.. kind of like how everything in this world is connected.. we all need everything in the world.. like it was meant for us to live here.. kinda crazy right? kind of like we were put here for a reason... and whoever put us here gave us everything we needed to survive and grow as people.. not creatures.. but as people.

    Well I do believe in evolution but I also believe that life has always existed in some form or another. However, in our current world system, to prevent confusion, we can compare consciousness to a fire. It is simply an effect, caused by the right conditions.
    I do not believe that the universe was created for our benefit. On the contrary, we evolved from its being. I do agree with you, though about everything being connected. That is why we must live in harmony with nature.
    To put it simply, I do not believe in a first cause. Everything is here or has been here or will be here because of something else. It is an infinite chain of causes and effects.

    i question if you really believed nature has no beginning or end because you cant explain how or where we came from.. so to spare you the embarrassment of saying we came from a big bang, you just swiftly came up with, "i dont believe nature has a beginning or an end".. now if you really believe that is the question at this point.

    i trust me instincts way more than i trust you
  • zombiezombie Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think youll find many scientists that will tell you there was a point where true nothingness existed indefinitely. Most scientists if not all abandoned the theory that nothing existed b4 the big bang

    IF YOU GO BEYOND THE BIG BANG YOU WILL END UP in m-theory and it's maddness. At which point scientist are really guessing.
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe that existence itself is an infinite chain of cause and effect. There is no first cause or all mighty god. Scientists will always be in an endless search of what came before this or that, in their limited scope of infinity. It would be a waste of my time to tell you what came before us, when there was something else that preceded it.
    Your argument is flawed because you do not know from what or whom your god came. If your god has no beginning or end, there should be no problem for you to understand that nature has no beginning or end.
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    I don't think youll find many scientists that will tell you there was a point where true nothingness existed indefinitely. Most scientists if not all abandoned the theory that nothing existed b4 the big bang

    IF YOU GO BEYOND THE BIG BANG YOU WILL END UP in m-theory and it's maddness. At which point scientist are really guessing.

    They will always be guessing. There will never be a point where man knows all. Like I said, existence itself is infinite
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • PremeerPremeer Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    I believe that existence itself is an infinite chain of cause and effect. There is no first cause or all mighty god. Scientists will always be in an endless search of what came before this or that, in their limited scope of infinity. It would be a waste of my time to tell you what came before us, when there was something else that preceded it.
    Your argument is flawed because you do not know from what or whom your god came. If your god has no beginning or end, there should be no problem for you to understand that nature has no beginning or end.

    the nonnnnnnnnnnnnn sense science creates. i love how people who believe science back it 100000% as if its true.. they latch on to those theorys as if they are golden.. then when scientists come up with new theorys and methods or what not.. those science believers just change their beliefs with them lol a bunch of non-stable, un-certain, un-sure, but KNOW ALL creatures atheists are lol

    James 1:6
    But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. for he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea drive with the wind and tossed
    i trust me instincts way more than i trust you
  • zombiezombie Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    I don't think youll find many scientists that will tell you there was a point where true nothingness existed indefinitely. Most scientists if not all abandoned the theory that nothing existed b4 the big bang

    IF YOU GO BEYOND THE BIG BANG YOU WILL END UP in m-theory and it's maddness. At which point scientist are really guessing.

    They will always be guessing. There will never be a point where man knows all. Like I said, existence itself is infinite

    The universe is not infinite. The big bang theory has been and still is the most observable science based and sensible explanation of the creation of the universe. THE other ones like string theory and m-theory are not as observable and are far the fuck out when you think about it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

    The universe always existing has been disproved.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,549 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    I believe that existence itself is an infinite chain of cause and effect. There is no first cause or all mighty god. Scientists will always be in an endless search of what came before this or that, in their limited scope of infinity. It would be a waste of my time to tell you what came before us, when there was something else that preceded it.
    Your argument is flawed because you do not know from what or whom your god came. If your god has no beginning or end, there should be no problem for you to understand that nature has no beginning or end.

    It's a shame your point was totally missed in a hell bent attempt to discredit what you said.
    Bodhi
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your response does not answer anything I said. what makes you believe I'm unstable? Or is that just something you fall back on when you have nothing left to say? I'm certain about my beliefs, which I have shared with you unless someone or something can prove otherwise.
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • PremeerPremeer Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your response does not answer anything I said. what makes you believe I'm unstable? Or is that just something you fall back on when you have nothing left to say? I'm certain about my beliefs, which I have shared with you unless someone or something can prove otherwise.
    how are you unstable? you have no idea where where we came from.. how we got here, or why we are here.. your answer is "i dont believe nature has a beginning or an end".. please. you dont possibly believe that.. your answers scream uncertainty.

    and what makes you think i have nothing left to say? i been here since page 1 lol. you just got here and my tank is still full. but you not making no points, nor debunking anything. you havnt even given me a legit answer about ANYTHING.

    i trust me instincts way more than i trust you
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Where does your god come from?
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • PremeerPremeer Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Where does your god come from?
    God didnt come from nowhere. God is not a man. you are talking about GOD as if he is one of us.. GOD IS!! GOD JUST IS!!

    ponder that for a minute.
    i trust me instincts way more than i trust you
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    100 Prime wrote: »
    Where does your god come from?
    God didnt come from nowhere. God is not a man. you are talking about GOD as if he is one of us.. GOD IS!! GOD JUST IS!!

    ponder that for a minute.

    Nature as a whole did not come from anywhere neither. Nature is everything. NATURE IS!!! NATURE JUST IS!!!

    now do you understand?
    I am not afraid to admit that I do not know everything. Neither do you. Our level of uncertainty is about the same. However, you believe that your god is eternal and I believe that nature is eternal.

    Admitting your limitation is to obtain great wisdom.
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • PremeerPremeer Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    100 Prime wrote: »
    Where does your god come from?
    God didnt come from nowhere. God is not a man. you are talking about GOD as if he is one of us.. GOD IS!! GOD JUST IS!!

    ponder that for a minute.

    Nature as a whole did not come from anywhere neither. Nature is everything. NATURE IS!!! NATURE JUST IS!!!

    now do you understand?
    I am not afraid to admit that I do not know everything. Neither do you. Our level of uncertainty is about the same. However, you believe that your god is eternal and I believe that nature is eternal.

    Admitting your limitation is to obtain great wisdom.

    my level of uncertainty is at ZERO.. cuz i know God and what he did.. you? dont even know who God is cuz if you did, you wouldnt be asking such a silly question such as, where did your God come from lol. im done. that did it for me. somebody so ignorant to ask that lets me know who im talking to and how misinformed you are about what you are trying to argue.

    btw.. God put nature there.... God made the universe.. there isnt a thing God didnt make.. in the universe. im done talking about this. i went pages 1-15 in the other thread about christians being "arrogant" and all pages in here.. it gets nowhere. its pointless. its a waste of my time. bunch of knuckleheads.
    i trust me instincts way more than i trust you
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bye
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
    Premeer
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    I don't think youll find many scientists that will tell you there was a point where true nothingness existed indefinitely. Most scientists if not all abandoned the theory that nothing existed b4 the big bang

    IF YOU GO BEYOND THE BIG BANG YOU WILL END UP in m-theory and it's maddness. At which point scientist are really guessing.

    They will always be guessing. There will never be a point where man knows all. Like I said, existence itself is infinite

    The universe is not infinite. The big bang theory has been and still is the most observable science based and sensible explanation of the creation of the universe. THE other ones like string theory and m-theory are not as observable and are far the fuck out when you think about it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

    The universe always existing has been disproved.

    I didnt say the universe is infinite; I said nature is infinite. Science shows that there was natural existence before the big bang.
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .IRS. wrote: »
    I believe that existence itself is an infinite chain of cause and effect. There is no first cause or all mighty god. Scientists will always be in an endless search of what came before this or that, in their limited scope of infinity. It would be a waste of my time to tell you what came before us, when there was something else that preceded it.
    Your argument is flawed because you do not know from what or whom your god came. If your god has no beginning or end, there should be no problem for you to understand that nature has no beginning or end.

    It's a shame your point was totally missed in a hell bent attempt to discredit what you said.

    It really is a shame. At least you caught it.
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • zombiezombie Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    I don't think youll find many scientists that will tell you there was a point where true nothingness existed indefinitely. Most scientists if not all abandoned the theory that nothing existed b4 the big bang

    IF YOU GO BEYOND THE BIG BANG YOU WILL END UP in m-theory and it's maddness. At which point scientist are really guessing.

    They will always be guessing. There will never be a point where man knows all. Like I said, existence itself is infinite

    The universe is not infinite. The big bang theory has been and still is the most observable science based and sensible explanation of the creation of the universe. THE other ones like string theory and m-theory are not as observable and are far the fuck out when you think about it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_State_theory

    The universe always existing has been disproved.

    I didnt say the universe is infinite; I said nature is infinite. Science shows that there was natural existence before the big bang.

    But nature is part of the universe and the universe is part of nature they are the same thing really. What i tried to tell you is that the so called science behind there being anything in existence before the big bang is sketchy at best, things like m-theory.
  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    By universe, I mean everything resulting from the big bang but science points to existence b4 the big bang. Nature would include that existence b4 the big bang and any/everything b4 that, still. I do not believe nature as a whole including time and energy began with the big bang. For if it did, that would leave only two options: creationism or nature coming into existence uncaused, both of which I reject. Like I said b4, I believe that existence is an eternal chain of cause and effect. There is always a point in past time you could look at and see the results of infinite past events. It is like a number line; present time being represented by the numeral 0. Past events are represented by negative whole numbers and future events by positive whole numbers. Both left and right on the number line stretch out to infinity in both directions.
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
  • zombiezombie Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    By universe, I mean everything resulting from the big bang but science points to existence b4 the big bang. Nature would include that existence b4 the big bang and any/everything b4 that, still. I do not believe nature as a whole including time and energy began with the big bang. For if it did, that would leave only two options: creationism or nature coming into existence uncaused, both of which I reject. Like I said b4, I believe that existence is an eternal chain of cause and effect. There is always a point in past time you could look at and see the results of infinite past events. It is like a number line; present time being represented by the numeral 0. Past events are represented by negative whole numbers and future events by positive whole numbers. Both left and right on the number line stretch out to infinity in both directions.

    Ok, but the science you are talking about is in the m-theory family and those theories are bullshit. they are math but not science.
    zombie wrote: »
    By universe, I mean everything resulting from the big bang but science points to existence b4 the big bang. Nature would include that existence b4 the big bang and any/everything b4 that, still. I do not believe nature as a whole including time and energy began with the big bang. For if it did, that would leave only two options: creationism or nature coming into existence uncaused, both of which I reject. Like I said b4, I believe that existence is an eternal chain of cause and effect. There is always a point in past time you could look at and see the results of infinite past events. It is like a number line; present time being represented by the numeral 0. Past events are represented by negative whole numbers and future events by positive whole numbers. Both left and right on the number line stretch out to infinity in both directions.

    Ok, but the science you are talking about is in the m-theory family and those theories are bullshit. they are math but not science.

  • BodhiBodhi Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. What makes m theory or string theory bullshit?
    2. Mathematics and science co exist
    3. Regardless of what theory is true, I believe there was existence b4 the big bang and most if not all current scientific theories point to that.
    “Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”
    -- Bruce Lee
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