My Problems With Pac...AKA... 2pac & His Many Faces...

Soloman_The_WiseSoloman_The_Wise The Make It Happen Man...Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
This has been a Long time Coming and may be out of left field for some of Yall as I love what Pac represented to our culture, he stays in My Top 6 and In Rotation on most of my playlists. Before I go in on it let me say all this. Over the years there has been a lot controversy about the Brother some legit others bullshit. My list Issues comes down to one of the very things that made him such a great artists in part his hypocrisy and contradictory nature. Pac came from a line of revolutionaries and had so much Potential but in the end it stopped with his Death and only his music is a true legacy too him but the stories and actions he took have changed the face of HipHop and Musical Entertainment and made him as Important a figure as many of the Artists who died young with exceptional bodies of work. Some of my issues have more to do with the public and media potrayal of him in life and death.

That all said I break down into bullets my issues with him...

1. Did not truly have an Identity of his own... He was raised within the struggle by a Panther mother and Stepfather. Yet while @ heart he may have been he never truly embraced that revolutionary identity that was thrust on him. He was never A Gangbanger nor was he by any accounts a Pimp, Dealer or Footsoldier. Yet he let others who were go beyond influencing his music. He tried to become what he was not and that ultimately got him Killed. Over the years life took him to a lot of different places and instead of maintaining his role as a voice for the Streets reporting what he saw and was living through he tried to become what he was talking about. Truely he was a conflicted individual and never found himself in life as is evident from the mixed messages he sent whether it was Was Loc'ing, ThugLife, M.O.B., Cali Love, NYC Love, etc...

2. Did not know where his Boundries were... It is one thing to have a problem with someone and have no fear of them it is another to put there private lives even when they cross with yours on blast. Pacs beefs are a huge part of his public identity From the police to directors to his former freinds to colleagues to criminal fronts. 2pac never was shy or had any couthe when it came to not just saying what was on his mind but letting air his and others dirty laundry. He blurred the line between streets and entertainment which got him shot up, locked up and ultimately caught up in death. I am not going to speculate too much as most is common knowledge to those who were old enough to pay attention during his life, but his mouth caused him many problems as it made him famous. He wore his heart on his sleave, despite all of his literary influence declarations he absorbed knowledge but apparently not the wisdom to know when and where to speak on what so as to have a effect on his foes preserving his upper hand while staying safe...

3. His Deification amongst a subgroup of his Fans... I have made it clear I am a Fan of the man and his work he meant a lot not just to HipHop Culture but to black experience here in Americain general. He has etched himself a place in History but many have placed him on a pedastal beyond reproach. He was not Malcom, Marcus, nor Martin. He had a great deal of potential that was never realized as I have already stated. Potentional does not = accomplishment and again a subgroup has him being the greatest revolutionary since those I just named. Just because one call themself Makaveli or Black Jesus does not Make them Niccolo or the Messiah. As much as he or any of us may have wished it to be otherwise 2pac was simply a Great Artist and Entertainer nothing more...


Part 2 coming soon...
nawledge_godgoldenjaaladdin1978jonoYoungGoldie32DaysOfInfinitialmighty breezeCottonCitySlimJYo79SixGwadtharealest561miamivice305CJDR. JEKjayvon32idoitforhiphop10soul rattlerMdizzle9000
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Replies

  • CirocObamaCirocObama Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    I agree but of course you'll always have idiots like @kuskklassic trying to make it into something else. Lemme guess Thug Life was "The Hate U Give.." thing right? FOH, be real..

    Btw, yes i'm a 2pac fan too. 2pac will not always be the most complex character just cuz you say it. His death made him complex cuz of people like you who stay re-writing shit and paint pictures of him that werent there. People do the same thing to Hendrix, Elvis etc. Death makes you become larger than life since it leaves a void for people to fill in whatever they believe they were..kinda like Batman in The Dark Knight rises.

    Soloman_The_Wisemiamivice305ILL_AnversIamtheVILLEsoul rattler
  • kuskklassickuskklassic Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭
    goldenja wrote: »
    when he died he was what, 25?

    all the stuff you explained already proves that he was:

    1. still tryna find himself

    2. I hate to say it but, a little immature.


    I don't know if you follow astrology at all T/S but.. he was a Gemini, and that honestly speaks volumes if you understand their personality.

    this is true. Pac was intelligent but immature by nature. i mean dude was only 25-26 when he passed away. look at alot of these artist today at that age and tell how really immature they sound and act.

    even at 25-26, Pac still has people in thier 30s-40s comparing themselves to him. that speaks volumes itself.
  • Soloman_The_WiseSoloman_The_Wise The Make It Happen Man... Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    goldenja wrote: »
    when he died he was what, 25?

    all the stuff you explained already proves that he was:

    1. still tryna find himself

    2. I hate to say it but, a little immature.
    as much as I wish it were different I have to disagree most people know which way they are going by the time they hit there 20's some much earlier. many poeple have problems with entertainers like Lil Wayne, or Rick Ross for adopting later life hood indentities yet give Pac a pass largely only because of his passing.Not saying that others do not also adopt alter egos in the rap game but most do not try to live the persona outside of the music unless that is who they really are. I am not going to go into that should have could have would have shit but he defintely had a track record of not knowing who he truly was and showed that to the publis. But that is one of the very traits that made him a real artist that turmoil and confusion was something all real folks could identify with...

  • goldenjagoldenja Posts: 5,423 ✭✭✭✭✭
    goldenja wrote: »
    when he died he was what, 25?

    all the stuff you explained already proves that he was:

    1. still tryna find himself

    2. I hate to say it but, a little immature.


    I don't know if you follow astrology at all T/S but.. he was a Gemini, and that honestly speaks volumes if you understand their personality.

    this is true. Pac was intelligent but immature by nature. i mean dude was only 25-26 when he passed away. look at alot of these artist today at that age and tell how really immature they sound and act.

    even at 25-26, Pac still has people in thier 30s-40s comparing themselves to him. that speaks volumes itself.

    yup. he's what you consider a hybrid
  • antarticpantarticp Posts: 8,371 ✭✭✭✭✭
    2. Did not know where his Boundries were... It is one thing to have a problem with someone and have no fear of them it is another to put there private lives even when they cross with yours on blast. Pacs beefs are a huge part of his public identity From the police to directors to his former freinds to colleagues to criminal fronts. 2pac never was shy or had any couthe when it came to not just saying what was on his mind but letting air his and others dirty laundry. He blurred the line between streets and entertainment which got him shot up, locked up and ultimately caught up in death. I am not going to speculate too much as most is common knowledge to those who were old enough to pay attention during his life, but his mouth caused him many problems as it made him famous. He wore his heart on his sleave, despite all of his literary influence declarations he absorbed knowledge but apparently not the wisdom to know when and where to speak on what so as to have a effect on his foes preserving his upper hand while staying safe...

    good post ... im hoping 50 cent doesnt fall victim to this one ... cause dudes seems to have ZERO filter and ZERO fucks given when its talk time lol ;)

    thats my nigga tho but real ish ..... sometimes he says a lil toooooo much lol surprise fif has any friends ... lol
  • antarticpantarticp Posts: 8,371 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    1. Did not truly have an Identity of his own... He was raised within the struggle by a Panther mother and Stepfather. Yet while @ heart he may have been he never truly embraced that revolutionary identity that was thrust on him. He was never A Gangbanger nor was he by any accounts a Pimp, Dealer or Footsoldier. Yet he let others who were go beyond influencing his music. He tried to become what he was not and that ultimately got him Killed. Over the years life took him to a lot of different places and instead of maintaining his role as a voice for the Streets reporting what he saw and was living through he tried to become what he was talking about. Truely he was a conflicted individual and never found himself in life as is evident from the mixed messages he sent whether it was Was Loc'ing, ThugLife, M.O.B., Cali Love, NYC Love, etc...

    very true !! however pac was on the right path ... but 1 thing he never consider is how attractive and addictive that lifestyle is ... as ratchet as it is ... its way more addicting then leading a righteous life ... DUDE GOT CAUGHT UP OUT THERE ... and it very evident ........ pac wanted to fit in so people could relate to him ... so when it was time to talk about REAL ISSUES ... people wouldnt say hes preachin etc...... but like i said that shit back fired like a mofo on him ........ cant no one really say 2pac would had flipped the script .... we all hear about the 1nation album .... but no one can predict the future ... he could had scrapped that album and did some other ish ... or it might have not got the green light etc.... you just never know ....

    funny thing is thats suposely what Lil B is doing ... and everyone is critizing him for that ... including me lol .... shame on me LOL
  • Soloman_The_WiseSoloman_The_Wise The Make It Happen Man... Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tupac basically took EVERY aspect of a young black male in this society and told a story. NOBODY is the same person their whole lives, and EVERYBODY is influenced by something or someone ate some time in life.

    most people get THUG LIFE confused with "being a thug", when it didnt meant that at all.

    Pac was the closes thing out generation had to a revolutionary artist like Bob Marley or John Lennon.

    He was compared to Martin, Malcom, & Marcus because he really stood strong behind wat he believed in and went to great hieghts to get his voice herad even if that ment being murdered/assasinated. and lets not forget Pac was raised by members of the Black Panther party, some were Americas Most Wanted.

    So if Pac decied to rap about liquor, money, drugs, and females...its because he was still young and never really had a true childhood. but when he was ready to be political and concious it was still respected because he knew what he was talking about and wasnt just taljking/rapping bout it but actually tryna make shyt happen.

    Tupac will always be the most complex character Hip Hop or maybe music period has ever seen.

    the only problem i had with Pac was letting Suge play him against Puff & BIG. besides that Pac was just a 26yo man who seen and been through alot while still tryna to enjoy his life(party,etc) and help when he could.

    I will acknowledge that is what you feel and believe but that does not make it reality fam. No hate here But Lennon and Marley are a lot like Pac also in the fact they are great artists who have been falsely deified. Although I will give Marley the difference point of actually living long enough to make a bridge into his potential fullfillment. As to the rest of your post I am not splitting hairs but I think you did not truly comprehend what I wrote in regards to his music versus his life. Also Suge did not play him stop that revsionist shit, Suge gave him muscle against a common set of adversaries 2pac had issues with those kats before Suge was ever a factor. For more details do some research on Pacs 1st shooting...
  • kuskklassickuskklassic Posts: 972 ✭✭✭✭
    the difference between Wayne,Ross & Pac....

    Pac didnt "adapt" a lifestyle and never said he was a kingpin or a gangmember, he just respected them and understood why they did certain things.

    Wayne,Ross actually try to paint a picture as if they were the biggest cocain dealers in the city(Ross) or that they been gangbanging since birth(Wayne).

    Ross would have NEVER told us about the CO shyt if they didnt expose him. and Wayne would have never admitted to sum Black Mafia shyt after kissing baby if picture never surfaced. these dudes tried to hide some things on thier past. where as Tupac embraced his pace from Black Panthers to being a background dancer. these new artist just try to paint such a tough picture when its clear they lying about something, Pac kept it truthful regardless.
    32DaysOfInfinitiidoitforhiphop10Undergroundraplegend
  • aladdin1978aladdin1978 Poo Poo Jenkins West coastin'Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thread starter you're going to get s slew of insults and negative posters so get ready, but I however agree with you. I have always have felt Pac was a great ACTOR.
    Soloman_The_Wise
  • goldenjagoldenja Posts: 5,423 ✭✭✭✭✭
    goldenja wrote: »
    when he died he was what, 25?

    all the stuff you explained already proves that he was:

    1. still tryna find himself

    2. I hate to say it but, a little immature.
    as much as I wish it were different I have to disagree most people know which way they are going by the time they hit there 20's some much earlier. many poeple have problems with entertainers like Lil Wayne, or Rick Ross for adopting later life hood indentities yet give Pac a pass largely only because of his passing.Not saying that others do not also adopt alter egos in the rap game but most do not try to live the persona outside of the music unless that is who they really are. I am not going to go into that should have could have would have shit but he defintely had a track record of not knowing who he truly was and showed that to the publis. But that is one of the very traits that made him a real artist that turmoil and confusion was something all real folks could identify with...

    with all due respect to the other posters, can we not talk about other artist for a min..

    when I say pac was a little bit "immature" in no way do I mean that in a negative way, believe me.

    im just saying he had a little more soul searching is all..



    there's a quote that always stuck to me in a book I read (catcher in the rye) and it goes like this:


    "The mark of a immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mature man wants to live humbly for one."
    Soloman_The_Wise
  • NoCompetitionNoCompetition Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Im a grown man. Dude had some great songs and was a great amazing rapper. I look at it as he was a born entertainer who came up hard. His story is authentic and documented. One of my favorite rappers had good movies too. Just a talented person who gave the world art. A lot of which is beneficial if you know how to interpret it. I'll let yall do what you do on here and discuss whatever. That part is inconsequential.
    Soloman_The_Wise
  • jonojono Complacency is the enemy of progress... Posts: 15,969 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agrees with all points of the OP. Very well said. If you can't accept someone for who they are you're not really a supporter or believer in them. Tupac fans refuse to acknowledge his contradictory character.
  • NoCompetitionNoCompetition Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭✭✭
    T.s. I see you gave props so you prob already know whats up. wasnt tryin to dis or nothin. You made a topic of discussion. I understand and aint mad at ya (to quote Pac)...Just had to give my view.
    Soloman_The_Wise
  • internationalinternational Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I ain't even goin read all that...Read a few lines but that was it, but I can see the direction that the threadstarter has opted in order to drive his argument...but lets all remember that Pac died he was 25 years old, that is very young and look at all that he had accomplished, Jay-z made it in to the game at around age 26 or older, and thats when he made it into the game, not knocking Jay just pointing out the obvious...

    Also, this was a young man that was nearly born in jail, from a strong black panther background, been accused of rape, been shot 5 times, attacked by the police and etc, all before the age of 25...His actions and music clearly mirrored his life at that particurlar time and moment, reality always has an impact on an artists life...It ain't even that deep, taking in mind the context his actions become clear and more understandable, smh...

    what is it that yall don't get? Yall always got some bs argument about someone contradicting they selves an blah blah blah, that's a very simple/easy/lazy way of looking at things, smh...Dead this ish already...

    miamivice305Undergroundraplegend
  • Soloman_The_WiseSoloman_The_Wise The Make It Happen Man... Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is not a hate thread this is a me as a fan being critical of one of my favorites. Tupac's afterlife has cast huge shadow on hiphop and a lot of people today are preying on the ignorance of his actual life. I see a lot of revisionism in regards to the man and what he actually did and just wanted to bring it forward to discuss...
    antarticpalmighty breezemiamivice305
  • Soloman_The_WiseSoloman_The_Wise The Make It Happen Man... Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I ain't even goin read all that...Read a few lines but that was it,
    @international
    If you did not read then why bother speaking on it? Makes no sense to type a bunch of shit as a response if you do not comrehend what you are responding to, basically you defeat your own argument by your opening admitance of ignorance on the topic. Pac defintely lived in the moment and that made for some great music and entertainment history but as a man and artist it led to a early death and a lot of wasted potential. As I already stated the very thing that made him and his art accessible and real also destroyed him. No hate fam just the facts maybe you should take amoment to read what was posted initially before further response...

    antoseegmiamivice305Pervisidoitforhiphop10
  • antarticpantarticp Posts: 8,371 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I ain't even goin read all that...Read a few lines but that was it,
    @international
    If you did not read then why bother speaking on it? Makes no sense to type a bunch of shit as a response if you do not comrehend what you are responding to, basically you defeat your own argument by your opening admitance of ignorance on the topic. Pac defintely lived in the moment and that made for some great music and entertainment history but as a man and artist it led to a early death and a lot of wasted potential. As I already stated the very thing that made him and his art accessible and real also destroyed him. No hate fam just the facts maybe you should take amoment to read what was posted initially before further response...

    and at that he wrote a long as spew himself ... starts it off like that ... then expects someone to read his spew ... lol come on son lol
    Soloman_The_Wiseantoseegmiamivice305idoitforhiphop10
  • 32DaysOfInfiniti32DaysOfInfiniti Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    I agree with you but I have to say you are doing him a disservice to say he wasn't as important as King or any of the other martyrs.

    Mind you, Lennon, Malcolm, Che and countless other activist mouths got them in more trouble than a PR rep would like, but it is the fact alone that they even had the guts to speak out on things that other people deemed unspeakable.

    Thats what made them such important icons, they werent politically correct Paul McCartney's or Jay Z's who just stroke the medias ego to stay in favor with them. If something bothered or intrigued them they said it in the most uncolorful non sugar coated manner, and people at the time either loved it hated it. Very black and white buy more the latter.

    But that hatred over time turned into understanding and allowed them to understand even more how important, unique, and unlikely these people were.

    People who speak out like that usually dont get famous, so its an anomaly cause they dont typically follow the rules (atleast according to public perception). Thats why they are so well remembered, cause they were truly different.

    Also the fact that he was finding himself is an even greater indication of his servitude to people and ability to connect. A less successful artist/intelligent person wouldnt have had the breakthroughs Pac had in his short life, and would otherwise be the washed up niggas talking about him in these documentaries and interviews.

    Pac is one most impactful people of all time. No denying that.

    A great man? Thats up for serious debate, but then who really is...
  • CirocObamaCirocObama Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the difference between Wayne,Ross & Pac....

    Pac didnt "adapt" a lifestyle and never said he was a kingpin or a gangmember, he just respected them and understood why they did certain things.

    Wayne,Ross actually try to paint a picture as if they were the biggest cocain dealers in the city(Ross) or that they been gangbanging since birth(Wayne).

    Ross would have NEVER told us about the CO shyt if they didnt expose him. and Wayne would have never admitted to sum Black Mafia shyt after kissing baby if picture never surfaced. these dudes tried to hide some things on thier past. where as Tupac embraced his pace from Black Panthers to being a background dancer. these new artist just try to paint such a tough picture when its clear they lying about something, Pac kept it truthful regardless.

    Yeah he wasnt out there repping the crips early on and then the bloods later on screaming out M.O.B., which he ONCE AGAIN flipped to fool idiots like you, which was a reference to MOB Piru a gang Suge repped.

    Difference is 2pac was on STAGE doing that so he had no choice. He never "admited" to anything everything was already out there. He was a back up dancer to a POPULAR rap group, you think he wouldnt get asked about it down the line?

    Uhh? Idiot Wayne and Baby had already kissed in Wayne's video back in 2000 and said on 106 & Park yeeears BEFORE that picture. Get it right idiot.

    See what i mean? I never get on 2pac stans but idiots that came after his death i despise them mufuckas. They really look at him on some god shit like he was so much different and so above everyone and everything, which again comes when a celebritiy dies.
  • 32DaysOfInfiniti32DaysOfInfiniti Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    CirocObama wrote: »
    the difference between Wayne,Ross & Pac....

    Pac didnt "adapt" a lifestyle and never said he was a kingpin or a gangmember, he just respected them and understood why they did certain things.

    Wayne,Ross actually try to paint a picture as if they were the biggest cocain dealers in the city(Ross) or that they been gangbanging since birth(Wayne).

    Ross would have NEVER told us about the CO shyt if they didnt expose him. and Wayne would have never admitted to sum Black Mafia shyt after kissing baby if picture never surfaced. these dudes tried to hide some things on thier past. where as Tupac embraced his pace from Black Panthers to being a background dancer. these new artist just try to paint such a tough picture when its clear they lying about something, Pac kept it truthful regardless.

    Yeah he wasnt out there repping the crips early on and then the bloods later on screaming out M.O.B., which he ONCE AGAIN flipped to fool idiots like you, which was a reference to MOB Piru a gang Suge repped.

    Difference is 2pac was on STAGE doing that so he had no choice. He never "admited" to anything everything was already out there. He was a back up dancer to a POPULAR rap group, you think he wouldnt get asked about it down the line?

    Uhh? Idiot Wayne and Baby had already kissed in Wayne's video back in 2000 and said on 106 & Park yeeears BEFORE that picture. Get it right idiot.

    See what i mean? I never get on 2pac stans but idiots that came after his death i despise them mufuckas. They really look at him on some god shit like he was so much different and so above everyone and everything, which again comes when a celebritiy dies.

    Real talk lol didnt Wayne kiss Baby on the lips live on 106th before anybody even spread that pic?

    To Pac's defense though, he may have been affiliated, but he never said he was one. Also being a back up dancer for Digi Underground wasnt a secret, everybody knew it. If somebody asked him that in the 2000's he may have smiled/laughed shyly and palm his face but I know he wouldnt have straight lied like Ross. He just wasnt that type a guy, he didnt hide things.

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