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Is it fair to say that the gods or our higher power is lazy? Or just incapable?

kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 11 in The Social Lounge
As many here may already know, I'm not religious, but I tend to believe there is some kind of higher power out there. Lately, I haven't discussed religion with much people because I consider religion to be something of a scam and it seems more and more people are realizing this, but I remain very open to there being some kind of god or higher power out there. I have flirted with all out atheism before and at times still do, but I can't get around the fact that there seems to be SOME kind of design in the world. As flawed as much of it is......

With that being said, my mom is a nurse and takes care of special needs children. What made me create this thread is that she is now taking care of a 5 year old girl who not only has autism, she was born with a hole in her throat, born a dwarf, cannot speak, and is partially deaf. She needs an oxygen tank at all times. The mother of the girl is a healthy woman who seems responsible, and ironically is somewhat religious. So how the hell does a religious woman give birth to a baby born with all these deformities?

For those who firmly believe or at least think there is a god/higher power, is it safe to say that god/the gods are somewhat lazy? Thousands, maybe millions of babies are born with deformities every year, and while I hear some say god doesn't make mistakes, that clearly isn't the case. Or maybe my expectations of a god are too high? It just seems weird that our "god" can make so many mistakes in life.
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Replies

  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11
    If someone thinks my expectations of a god are too high, then why do so many religious people say "god doesn't make mistakes"? Did our "god" purposely make babies have so many birth defects out there? Seems kind of strange to me. I'm not here to diss "god", I'm just here to understand.
    VulcanRaven
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    I fully agree, but we can make some kind of judgments on the world right? Based on the state of the world, assuming there is a powerful being out there, it does seem a little inactive for my taste.

    I've kind of accepted that there are limits in any kind of god that is out there. Like a father who is strong, but unable to do much in the grand scheme of things.
  • VulcanRavenVulcanRaven I don't knowPosts: 18,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    Which means religion is useless. My point exactly. People be preaching and talking about God and the bible, but how would they know anymore than anyone else?
    SuperManuelkingblaze84Los216anduin
  • bambubambu *Earth & Water* Posts: 3,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    I fully agree, but we can make some kind of judgments on the world right? Based on the state of the world, assuming there is a powerful being out there, it does seem a little inactive for my taste.

    I've kind of accepted that there are limits in any kind of god that is out there. Like a father who is strong, but unable to do much in the grand scheme of things.

    I think that those judgments we make are the problem....

    Many birth defects are the result of the environment rather than a decision or fault in God's design.....



    Men need images..... Lacking them they invent idols.



  • bambubambu *Earth & Water* Posts: 3,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    Which means religion is useless. My point exactly. People be preaching and talking about God and the bible, but how would they know anymore than anyone else?

    religion vs spirituality.....

    And ultimately religion is necessary.....

    Humans are mostly sheepish....

    And need to be led, or mislead....





    Men need images..... Lacking them they invent idols.



    kingblaze84
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trying to figure out the mind of the religious to understand why they can have a gimped out kid and still believe is futile until you are one of them.
    kingblaze84
  • luke1733luke1733 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    As many here may already know, I'm not religious, but I tend to believe there is some kind of higher power out there. Lately, I haven't discussed religion with much people because I consider religion to be something of a scam and it seems more and more people are realizing this, but I remain very open to there being some kind of god or higher power out there. I have flirted with all out atheism before and at times still do, but I can't get around the fact that there seems to be SOME kind of design in the world. As flawed as much of it is......

    With that being said, my mom is a nurse and takes care of special needs children. What made me create this thread is that she is now taking care of a 5 year old girl who not only has autism, she was born with a hole in her throat, born a dwarf, cannot speak, and is partially deaf. She needs an oxygen tank at all times. The mother of the girl is a healthy woman who seems responsible, and ironically is somewhat religious. So how the hell does a religious woman give birth to a baby born with all these deformities?

    For those who firmly believe or at least think there is a god/higher power, is it safe to say that god/the gods are somewhat lazy? Thousands, maybe millions of babies are born with deformities every year, and while I hear some say god doesn't make mistakes, that clearly isn't the case. Or maybe my expectations of a god are too high? It just seems weird that our "god" can make so many mistakes in life.
    Why do bad things happen to good people?
    You and I've gone back and forth with our understandings on these topic matters respectfully and I can answer my belief this way:
    -Most Christians understand this world and all in it to be under the power and curse of sin. This is a deviation/distortion of God's way. Thus, this world is filled with and almost overruled by things that are the exact opposite of how God would have us live.
    The second reason Christians or religious people are not removed from tragedies is it would not be a good barometer to measure one's faith. The Old Testament God seems very big on testing the quality of humans faith. If people only believed in God so that they could receive blessings and avoid hardships then it would be like a kid only obeying his parents to avoid a whipping or get a Christmas gift. God seems preoccupied with wanting humans to understand and agree with why a thing is right or wrong. It seems principles to him have a meaning greater than just a punishment/reward.
    I find a true measure of understanding one's faith to be revealed the most when an individual receives nothing from doing what they believe is right but does it anyway. This shows that the person truly believes in his/her actions regardless of a reaction. That type of faith seems stronger to me.



    Due to those two reasons, I believe we as humans/christians/or any religion/faith are not removed from anything "on Earth" that another who does not believe in God would receive; however I do also believe in exceptions to when God for his own reason decides to intervene. In my opinion, his intervention cannot, cannot be predicted.
    For the most part, we as humans are alone on Earth. There are many examples in the bible where we are told this by God due to our sin that it makes it very hard for God to hear us and that we are distanced from him. The extended definition of sin is "without God". It is because of our distance that priests and Jesus and sacrifices were done to reconnect with God, bc according to scripture he wasn't going to just hear the average human anymore. He expressed many times that he was through with humanity. Then again, there are times God let's us know he is ultimately in control of this Earth, but will allow what we brought on ourselves to play out.

    Not to think too far out, but I believe/wonder if we're being prepped as humans to be rulers/overseers of other worlds. Our experience here is like a molding process.
    Or
    our lives are being watched by other rulers of worlds as a test experiment to show what the repercussions of sin are and what life can be without G
    od.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    If someone thinks my expectations of a god are too high, then why do so many religious people say "god doesn't make mistakes"? Did our "god" purposely make babies have so many birth defects out there? Seems kind of strange to me. I'm not here to diss "god", I'm just here to understand.

    Religion has nothing to do with God, which why I am also not religious. Religion is created by humans to control other humans. Me personally, I don't think God is what people claim "IT" is. God could just be the Earth, which would make the most sense since our lively hood depends on the planet. God may not even have a consciousness to actually intervene on our lives. Which is a contradiction anyway since religion mentions free will. If free will exists then God does not intervene. If it is a part of God's plan, then no one is a t fault for their actions, which means no one is a sinner or evil. It's one big paradox with no facts or sound logical reasoning involved.

    That makes a lot of sense, I'm surprised more people haven't realized that religion was fully created by people for the purpose of control. I'm not sure where people get that it was "divinely inspired" when no gods have written the religious textbooks themselves, but I suppose it gives many some kind of comfort in life, I can't think of any other reason why some are still so into it.

    Otherwise I fully agree that our version of "god" is completely off (the common standard view of Abrahamic religions for example), I personally think the idea of "god" being our planet and maybe even other planets makes a whole lot of sense. I always thought that if there is a god, there are several of them, and maybe they don't have a consciousness as you said.

    Any kind of god with a sense of consciousness that is STILL comfortable with all the NATURAL deformities of the world might be half evil, or something similar. But our higher power not having a true sense of consciousness makes a TON of sense. Maybe our "god" is not even aware of what is truly going on.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    bambu wrote: »
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    I fully agree, but we can make some kind of judgments on the world right? Based on the state of the world, assuming there is a powerful being out there, it does seem a little inactive for my taste.

    I've kind of accepted that there are limits in any kind of god that is out there. Like a father who is strong, but unable to do much in the grand scheme of things.

    I think that those judgments we make are the problem....

    Many birth defects are the result of the environment rather than a decision or fault in God's design.....


    Well that's the thing, as sentient beings with freedom of thought and awareness of the world, how can we not make judgments of the world? It's hard to not see the great beauty of the world (hot women, trees, flowers, etc) but it's maybe just as easy to see the great negatives of the natural world, animals eating each other alive, babies born with hearts outside their chests or born with parasites in its body, among other things I've heard about.

    I agree many birth defects are the result of environment or bad behavior, but just as many, if not more, come from the natural world.

    Do you think it's possible that our god may not even be aware as to the flaws of the earthly world? I think it's possible that maybe our god is not even aware as to what great horrors are part of the natural world every day. Cerebral palsy and the suicide disease (severe migraines that come out of nowhere for thousands of people) seem to be natural things for many people, and I wonder if our god is even aware of these things.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trying to figure out the mind of the religious to understand why they can have a gimped out kid and still believe is futile until you are one of them.

    LOL I wonder the same thing. If I had a kid who was born with ALL those disorders that I mentioned AND needed an oxygen tank, I would probably be cursing the heavens every day for a long time. But supposedly, the woman I mentioned goes to church often, maybe she's praying for a miracle? Hope she gets it.....
    BiblicalAtheist
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @luke1733

    That's a very interesting perspective for sure, and yeah we definitely have had good convo on this subject, it seems we share some ideas now that we both think is possible. I have often thought that maybe our world is a giant experiment as well, a world that is like an ant sandbox of some kind......but then again, I say to myself, how long is this experiment supposed to last? It seems the same kinds of horrors of the world keep happening over and over again, floods, droughts, parasites, baby deformities, etc. I say to myself, to whatever god is out there, hasn't this experiment without any kind of intervention been a cruel experience to too many?

    Which is why the idea of our god being a distant god is pretty convincing, but it's definitely contradictory to the Abrahamic view of god. Because the Abrahamic god seems to be at least AWARE of the horrors of the world, even admitting to creating the horrors of the world, yet doing nothing to resolve much of it, it seems like an almost mean spirited god. Almost like hitting an employee over the head because he or she copies some documents wrong.

    Otherwise, I always found the idea of Jesus sacrificing himself for our sins to be noble if true, but um, nothing changed lol. It seems the same deformities and other bad things still keep happening after 2000 plus years, so I still look at the Bible god with the side eye. For the Abrahamic god to be so aware of the world as you make it seem, is it fair to say your god may be perhaps a bit sadistic? After all, it admits to creating calamity, and while I admit many people are fucked up and do sin a lot, do you really believe that MOST people are inherently bad? While many do "sin" depending on your view of sin, I'm not sure that warrants a religious woman or any woman having a baby born with SO MANY deformities, with zero intervention from what you claim is an aware god.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bambu wrote: »
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    Which means religion is useless. My point exactly. People be preaching and talking about God and the bible, but how would they know anymore than anyone else?

    religion vs spirituality.....

    And ultimately religion is necessary.....

    Humans are mostly sheepish....

    And need to be led, or mislead....




    Are you part of a religion? Because if religion is truly necessary as you say, then how come non-religious societies are often some of the most disciplined and have some of the highest standards of living? Meanwhile, many religious societies are often some of the most chaotic. Venezuela and Brazil come to mind, and I can name a bunch more of chaotic, religious societies. Compare that to non-religious nations with low crime rates such as Japan or Norway, among others.
  • luke1733luke1733 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    I clearly see your point, but based on what is said by him in the bible he's far from sadistic so I can't sign onto saying he's sadistic (getting pleasure from doing evil). But, will he do some things that are clearly hard on humans for his own reasons? Yes.

    To your other point on the humans existence for so long without his intervention, I don't see the same way. I think in some ways people in the past were seeing more proof or direct experiences from God AND of course others were lying or high or had mental problems. But, that's opinion. On the other point you made I just don't see humans existence as being that long. We're probably around a total of 150 generations total if you add up everyone living on an average up to 70 years old to make up an estimated 11,250 years on Earth in the capacity we know ourselves to be in (outside of hunter gatherer societies). I'd hate to see all humanity judged based on 150 generations because of the ways the world has changed over time, but eh some patterns in our behavior do stay consistent.

    My belief is that for those who don't want to believe in God they just won't. If whatever voice or presence did materialize then I think all it would do would bring more questions, doubt and wars AND THE NEXT conflict for humans would be "what did he mean by what he said or did? Where did he come from? Was he real? Was it a trick? Why didn't he do this....or do that?"
    The only resolution to God's existence for mos
    t would be complete and constant presence. That would erase doubt, but it still would not make people love him.

    Let me jump to a tangent:
    If brain transplants ever become a reality then that might be a form of eternal life.......for the wealthy.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trying to figure out the mind of the religious to understand why they can have a gimped out kid and still believe is futile until you are one of them.

    LOL I wonder the same thing. If I had a kid who was born with ALL those disorders that I mentioned AND needed an oxygen tank, I would probably be cursing the heavens every day for a long time. But supposedly, the woman I mentioned goes to church often, maybe she's praying for a miracle? Hope she gets it.....

    Yup I'm pretty sure I'd be bitter af.
    kingblaze84
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12
    luke1733 wrote: »
    I clearly see your point, but based on what is said by him in the bible he's far from sadistic so I can't sign onto saying he's sadistic (getting pleasure from doing evil). But, will he do some things that are clearly hard on humans for his own reasons? Yes.

    To your other point on the humans existence for so long without his intervention, I don't see the same way. I think in some ways people in the past were seeing more proof or direct experiences from God AND of course others were lying or high or had mental problems. But, that's opinion. On the other point you made I just don't see humans existence as being that long. We're probably around a total of 150 generations total if you add up everyone living on an average up to 70 years old to make up an estimated 11,250 years on Earth in the capacity we know ourselves to be in (outside of hunter gatherer societies). I'd hate to see all humanity judged based on 150 generations because of the ways the world has changed over time, but eh some patterns in our behavior do stay consistent.

    My belief is that for those who don't want to believe in God they just won't. If whatever voice or presence did materialize then I think all it would do would bring more questions, doubt and wars AND THE NEXT conflict for humans would be "what did he mean by what he said or did? Where did he come from? Was he real? Was it a trick? Why didn't he do this....or do that?"
    The only resolution to God's existence for mos
    t would be complete and constant presence. That would erase doubt, but it still would not make people love him.

    Let me jump to a tangent:
    If brain transplants ever become a reality then that might be a form of eternal life.......for the wealthy.

    I wonder what god's reasons are for what you say are things he does himself to humans, which is pretty cruel but things are what they are. On the other hand, many people live decent lives so that's a positive thing too, but if I was a god, I would try to do more to lessen the issues going on around the world.

    Humans have been on Earth actually a long time, hundreds of thousands of years plus, so that's a lot of generations dealing with lots of the issues I mentioned. I know the world has improved in many ways too but in some ways things are going backwards as well. New diseases these days have no cure and anti-biotics aren't working for them. Kind of creepy how nature is playing these games on humanity, makes me wonder about the kind of higher powers that we have. I've thought at times that maybe some of our gods are giant germs lol. Kind of scary to think about.

    And you're right about the only thing that would convince all people of god's presence, it showing up here on Earth, but why do you say we would not love him if he did? Is it because of all the people he might send to hell, and their relatives would be upset?

    As far as brain transplants for those who are afraid of death, that would be cool if you could hook yourself up to a computer that you could control with your brain. If I could live out my life in some of my favorite games in the computer and add in maybe a few porn stars, I'd be up for a brains transplant too.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trying to figure out the mind of the religious to understand why they can have a gimped out kid and still believe is futile until you are one of them.

    LOL I wonder the same thing. If I had a kid who was born with ALL those disorders that I mentioned AND needed an oxygen tank, I would probably be cursing the heavens every day for a long time. But supposedly, the woman I mentioned goes to church often, maybe she's praying for a miracle? Hope she gets it.....

    Yup I'm pretty sure I'd be bitter af.

    Yeah, my mom has noticed that many of the parents with kids like that have broken up or were already broken up. It's gotta be tough dealing with a kid who needs so much assistance all the time, young kids are difficult enough when they're healthy.
  • bambubambu *Earth & Water* Posts: 3,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bambu wrote: »
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    Which means religion is useless. My point exactly. People be preaching and talking about God and the bible, but how would they know anymore than anyone else?

    religion vs spirituality.....

    And ultimately religion is necessary.....

    Humans are mostly sheepish....

    And need to be led, or mislead....




    Are you part of a religion? Because if religion is truly necessary as you say, then how come non-religious societies are often some of the most disciplined and have some of the highest standards of living? Meanwhile, many religious societies are often some of the most chaotic. Venezuela and Brazil come to mind, and I can name a bunch more of chaotic, religious societies. Compare that to non-religious nations with low crime rates such as Japan or Norway, among others.

    I do not go to church, so I guess I'm not part of a religion....

    I also think that's a faulty comparison....

    Economics and corruptions are the key factors in Brazil and Venezuela.....

    Religion only really poses a problem with political exploitations....

    The church provides necessary services in a society.....





    Men need images..... Lacking them they invent idols.



  • luke1733luke1733 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭
    luke1733 wrote: »

    Definitely thought the same thing before about the divine being germs/parasites. Here we are thinking they would be like human forms but in their reality they possess our bodies and minds in the forms of germs. I'm not saying I believe that, but definitely played with that thought too. Toxoplasmosis.
  • LUClENLUClEN Absence makes the heart grow fonder of someone else Posts: 20,402 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They could just not care.

    Or maybe they are not as good as we claim and they do this for nefarious purposes.
    The rapper from linkin park would body the dudes in the xxxtentacion cypher
    kingblaze84
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bambu wrote: »
    bambu wrote: »
    bambu wrote: »
    No finite mind can comprehend things infinite....


    Which means religion is useless. My point exactly. People be preaching and talking about God and the bible, but how would they know anymore than anyone else?

    religion vs spirituality.....

    And ultimately religion is necessary.....

    Humans are mostly sheepish....

    And need to be led, or mislead....




    Are you part of a religion? Because if religion is truly necessary as you say, then how come non-religious societies are often some of the most disciplined and have some of the highest standards of living? Meanwhile, many religious societies are often some of the most chaotic. Venezuela and Brazil come to mind, and I can name a bunch more of chaotic, religious societies. Compare that to non-religious nations with low crime rates such as Japan or Norway, among others.

    I do not go to church, so I guess I'm not part of a religion....

    I also think that's a faulty comparison....

    Economics and corruptions are the key factors in Brazil and Venezuela.....

    Religion only really poses a problem with political exploitations....

    The church provides necessary services in a society.....




    Well I do agree that religious groups are known to do charity works and other things, as many non-religious groups do too. But my basic point is that if religion is so necessary, then why is it that religious societies often seem to be much more chaotic and more filled with tension compared to many other non-religious nations?

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies

    I don't hate churches though, they can do a lot of good, but historically, a lot of bad too.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16
    @luke1733

    Yeah, who knows. Maybe our higher power or higher powers are something along those lines, creepy for me to wrap my mind around that but considering how powerful and EXPANSIVE bacteria is in the world, anything is possible. I personally think there probably is a bacteria god LOL.....

    Isn't it kind of weird that humans make up about 7 billion in population, but bacteria makes up literally more then a trillion trillion? And these are living things, fixing or setting up nitrogen in the soil, acting as parasites or breaking down cells or bodies. We humans think we're special and we are, but we're far more outnumbered by bacteria. And some bacteria are known to live for like hundreds of years.

    So it makes me wonder what the hell the universe was doing putting us in a planet SURROUNDED by such things. We live in a weird fucking world.
    luke1733
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LUClEN wrote: »
    They could just not care.

    Or maybe they are not as good as we claim and they do this for nefarious purposes.

    Yes, scary thought but definitely a possibility. I have heard some say "God is good" and others chant back "all the time". I know people say that when good times are happening, but I never understood that "all the time" part.
  • 808HiLife808808HiLife808 Posts: 991 ✭✭✭✭✭
    excerpt from a book im reading..

    "Monotheists have to practise intellectual gymnastics to explain how an all-knowing, all-powerful and perfectly good God allows so much suffering in the world.

    One well-known explanation is that this is God’s way of allowing for human free will.

    Freedom of will allows humans to choose evil. Many indeed choose evil and, according to the standard monotheist account, this choice must bring divine punishment in its wake.

    If God knew in advance that a particular person would use her free will to choose evil, and that as a result she would be punished for this by eternal tortures in hell, why did God create her?

    For dualists, it’s easy to explain evil. Bad things happen even to good people because the world is not governed single-handedly by a good God."
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