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Is it fair to say that the gods or our higher power is lazy? Or just incapable?

1235

Replies

  • sunlordsunlord Posts: 125 ✭✭
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    People want GOD to be what they want him to be and it does not work that way

    That's obvious, but children USUALLY expect the best out of their parents. They don't expect parents to set up booby traps all across their path in the form of horrible diseases, parasites, genetic deformities (signs of an imperfect god?), and hurricanes that drown their brothers and sisters, or their pet cat.

    Or should we expect parents to do these things?

    yeah but the child does not know what's best, serious genetic deformities are rare the vast majority of people don't die from strange parasites and believe it or not death is a good thing and trails and tribulations make people stronger. the world is in a sinful fallen state and man is evil so most of our issue don't come from nature but from ourselves on a deeper level mankind with the guidance of Satan literally corrupted the reality god created

    therefore a just god has to allow some suffering

    For overpopulation checks and balances, I agree death in some ways is a good thing. But the suffering is pretty massive worldwide if you really think about it, I agree most don't die from parasites or deformities, but a huge amount of people do.

    Many people are evil for sure, but why allow the innocent children to suffer? A just god TO ME would not let so many children suffer out here, a truly just god would at least do something to reduce the massive agony so many children and adults have out there, why should millions of parasites and diseases be created every year? If people are really that bad, then what does that say about our creator? Wouldn't that make god just as evil, if humans are that bad?

    Like I said before, it seems evil gets rewarded in this world, and we didn't make this world.....

    No it's not massive especially in this time, we live soft and easy lives compared to how people in the past lived, there are over 3 billion people on earth and almost no one dies from parasites and many of those who do only die BECAUSE people in wealthy positions or positions of power HAVE NOT given them the proper medicine or clean water. we ALLOW our fellow man to suffer needlessly and then some of us blame god for it.

    innocent children suffer at the hands of evil men because those men make the choice to do bad things or choose not to do the right thing. You are wrong because in a sense we did make this world, one of the messages of Genesis is that the world was once perfect but we corrupted it and so now we have suffering.... that's a metaphysical message.

    LOL HAHAHA but we didn't make this world though, Zombie is that you?

    How can you say almost no one dies from parasites, do you even watch the news? MANY CHILDREN worldwide die from hostile disease and parasites every day, by the hundreds of thousands and maybe millions a year, often in very painful ways. Plenty of people are trying to help solve these problems, and meanwhile, what is your god doing, aside from making millions of new parasites and disease each day? Innocent children suffer not just from other people, but mother nature itself. It's very bizarre to me and stop saying humans corrupted the world, we didn't create hurricanes or whatever random parasite you want to think of.

    CAN you at least try and understand what I am saying?? even if 50 million people die from parasites that's nothing because there are 3 billion people on more on earth..... and those who do die only die because they lack access to treatment/clean drinking water and this lack is our fault. because we allow a few of us to store up all the wealth and don't take care of each other. instead we are going to spend the earth natural resources on 1000 DOLLAR IPHONES and other luxuries. WHAT is god doing?? to easy our suffering he's already done all he needs to do by first of all giving us all the needed materials/resources we would need to take care of each other (us not sharing them is our fault) and secondly by giving us the moral teachings by which we should live with each other.

    sure the hurricanes kill a few people but hurricanes are necessary because they help the earth reach a kind of thermal equilibrium. Sine your carnal mind cannot understand the deeper spiritual meaning of saying we corrupted the earth I won't bring it up again.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    sunlord wrote: »
    People want GOD to be what they want him to be and it does not work that way

    That's obvious, but children USUALLY expect the best out of their parents. They don't expect parents to set up booby traps all across their path in the form of horrible diseases, parasites, genetic deformities (signs of an imperfect god?), and hurricanes that drown their brothers and sisters, or their pet cat.

    Or should we expect parents to do these things?

    I don't understand why you don't see parasites as having been given life as equally as anything that has been given life. A deformity is just a body, tho humans are so wrapped up in image a deformity is the most rudest blow from god but god might say, it's just a body, is not what it contains infinitely more important?

    A body is just a body? Come on madam. If there is a god looking down on us somewhere, it should know just how important our body is. A HUUUUGE part of who we are is based on our appearance, not completely of course but if you got the Elephant Man disease tomorrow for example, wouldn't your personality change drastically?

    I'm sure any god that made us (assuming that god is still alive or cares) would understand just how important our physical bodies are. And wait, parasites hold the same value as human life now? Aren't people supposed to be special? If not, then I guess every human on Earth is going to hell, we kill thousands of things every year......otherwise, parasites cause a ton of agony out there in the world and for some STRANGE reason, the universe creates MILLIONS of parasites a year, maybe more. And of course, kids suffer the most from these things, which is what bothers me the most.

    Life is life. Not that one is more or less important but that life is life. Given to all, serial killers and saints. If god had a world of perfectness what would be to learn? I think 'god' knows we have an image problem, I mean the bible does say make no graven images. And yes I would probably be a little wigged out and fucked up if I started to develop elephant man disease but hopefully I would awake enough to remember it's just a body.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just realized that's probably @zombie

    I'm almost certain it's him too, the crazy Jamaican guy. God help us.

    I new something was up when I felt like I was getting dumber going back and forth with this 'new' poster.
    kingblaze84
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4
    @kingblaze84 you know I don't ascribe to the wacked out bible god who behaves more human than human so sometimes it's hard for me to have a convo about this stuff cuz I see the bible and it stories a bit differently than most* xtians or other bible thumpers.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just realized that's probably @zombie

    I'm almost certain it's him too, the crazy Jamaican guy. God help us.

    I new something was up when I felt like I was getting dumber going back and forth with this 'new' poster.

    LOL I used to feel that way with Zombie at times, I'm hoping he's improved himself since then, maybe I'm being unrealistic after what you said.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @kingblaze84 you know I don't ascribe to the wacked out bible god who behaves more human than human so sometimes it's hard for me to have a convo about this stuff cuz I see the bible and it stories a bit differently than most* xtians or other bible thumpers.

    I do understand where you're coming from, you're not some Christian fundamentalist who looks at the Bible literally. You gather some wisdom from it and that's fine, I obviously have some issues with the Bible god and the world it "created", but you do have good points.

    I just question the setup of the world, and the more I do, the more convinced I am that this world is some kind of experiment, maybe an experiment gone wrong like Frankenstein or some shit. Maybe our higher power set up the booby traps of life to see how resilient people are, although I question the morality of our higher power too.

    It would be unethical for a scientist to operate on a conscious person, yet mother nature doesn't seem to have any ethics at all lol.....a creepy universe we live in. But a very interesting one too, for good and bad reasons.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    People want GOD to be what they want him to be and it does not work that way

    That's obvious, but children USUALLY expect the best out of their parents. They don't expect parents to set up booby traps all across their path in the form of horrible diseases, parasites, genetic deformities (signs of an imperfect god?), and hurricanes that drown their brothers and sisters, or their pet cat.

    Or should we expect parents to do these things?

    yeah but the child does not know what's best, serious genetic deformities are rare the vast majority of people don't die from strange parasites and believe it or not death is a good thing and trails and tribulations make people stronger. the world is in a sinful fallen state and man is evil so most of our issue don't come from nature but from ourselves on a deeper level mankind with the guidance of Satan literally corrupted the reality god created

    therefore a just god has to allow some suffering

    For overpopulation checks and balances, I agree death in some ways is a good thing. But the suffering is pretty massive worldwide if you really think about it, I agree most don't die from parasites or deformities, but a huge amount of people do.

    Many people are evil for sure, but why allow the innocent children to suffer? A just god TO ME would not let so many children suffer out here, a truly just god would at least do something to reduce the massive agony so many children and adults have out there, why should millions of parasites and diseases be created every year? If people are really that bad, then what does that say about our creator? Wouldn't that make god just as evil, if humans are that bad?

    Like I said before, it seems evil gets rewarded in this world, and we didn't make this world.....

    No it's not massive especially in this time, we live soft and easy lives compared to how people in the past lived, there are over 3 billion people on earth and almost no one dies from parasites and many of those who do only die BECAUSE people in wealthy positions or positions of power HAVE NOT given them the proper medicine or clean water. we ALLOW our fellow man to suffer needlessly and then some of us blame god for it.

    innocent children suffer at the hands of evil men because those men make the choice to do bad things or choose not to do the right thing. You are wrong because in a sense we did make this world, one of the messages of Genesis is that the world was once perfect but we corrupted it and so now we have suffering.... that's a metaphysical message.

    LOL HAHAHA but we didn't make this world though, Zombie is that you?

    How can you say almost no one dies from parasites, do you even watch the news? MANY CHILDREN worldwide die from hostile disease and parasites every day, by the hundreds of thousands and maybe millions a year, often in very painful ways. Plenty of people are trying to help solve these problems, and meanwhile, what is your god doing, aside from making millions of new parasites and disease each day? Innocent children suffer not just from other people, but mother nature itself. It's very bizarre to me and stop saying humans corrupted the world, we didn't create hurricanes or whatever random parasite you want to think of.

    CAN you at least try and understand what I am saying?? even if 50 million people die from parasites that's nothing because there are 3 billion people on more on earth..... and those who do die only die because they lack access to treatment/clean drinking water and this lack is our fault. because we allow a few of us to store up all the wealth and don't take care of each other. instead we are going to spend the earth natural resources on 1000 DOLLAR IPHONES and other luxuries. WHAT is god doing?? to easy our suffering he's already done all he needs to do by first of all giving us all the needed materials/resources we would need to take care of each other (us not sharing them is our fault) and secondly by giving us the moral teachings by which we should live with each other.

    sure the hurricanes kill a few people but hurricanes are necessary because they help the earth reach a kind of thermal equilibrium. Sine your carnal mind cannot understand the deeper spiritual meaning of saying we corrupted the earth I won't bring it up again.

    Well people didn't corrupt the world, YES we have made the planet worse in many ways but ONCE AGAIN, what does that say about OUR CREATOR? Humans are terrorizing the planet and its animals for sure, through pollution and greed, but nature has set up not just people for a lot of stuff, but animals too. So that disproves the theory of humans corrupting the planet, there have been parasites before humanity existed, animals probably suffer more from them and other diseases.

    And by the way, many people DO NOT have all the resources they need, many nations can't afford the money necessary to provide clean drinking water for all their people. Many people have nothing to eat or don't have a place to stay, and like in Puerto Rico, many are drinking from dirty water that's giving them all kinds of diseases. In Uganda right now, dirty water and animals with parasites are being blamed for a new disease that kills people in days in horrible ways. People didn't create most of these things, nature did.

    Also, there are plenty of people in rich nations with all kinds of health conditions too, so it's bigger then a money problem.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    People want GOD to be what they want him to be and it does not work that way

    That's obvious, but children USUALLY expect the best out of their parents. They don't expect parents to set up booby traps all across their path in the form of horrible diseases, parasites, genetic deformities (signs of an imperfect god?), and hurricanes that drown their brothers and sisters, or their pet cat.

    Or should we expect parents to do these things?

    I don't understand why you don't see parasites as having been given life as equally as anything that has been given life. A deformity is just a body, tho humans are so wrapped up in image a deformity is the most rudest blow from god but god might say, it's just a body, is not what it contains infinitely more important?

    A body is just a body? Come on madam. If there is a god looking down on us somewhere, it should know just how important our body is. A HUUUUGE part of who we are is based on our appearance, not completely of course but if you got the Elephant Man disease tomorrow for example, wouldn't your personality change drastically?

    I'm sure any god that made us (assuming that god is still alive or cares) would understand just how important our physical bodies are. And wait, parasites hold the same value as human life now? Aren't people supposed to be special? If not, then I guess every human on Earth is going to hell, we kill thousands of things every year......otherwise, parasites cause a ton of agony out there in the world and for some STRANGE reason, the universe creates MILLIONS of parasites a year, maybe more. And of course, kids suffer the most from these things, which is what bothers me the most.

    One of the principle messages of the bible is that your body it not as important as it seem to you.

    But our body is all we have in this world. Take away our brain, and what do we have? Take away our heart, and we're no longer alive. Take away our legs, and we can't walk and life gets really difficult, a bunch of places out there aren't wheelchair accessible.

    So I don't understand that premise, without our body, what do we have?

    NO IT'S NOT. we have our minds and spirit

    I'm talking about for HERE ON EARTH. If you're in a coma or brain dead, the mind can only go so far.

    if you are in a coma or brain dead you don't have any problems because you won't be conscious of anything.

    I'm sure the children of those brain dead people are very comforted knowing that.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @kingblaze84 you know I don't ascribe to the wacked out bible god who behaves more human than human so sometimes it's hard for me to have a convo about this stuff cuz I see the bible and it stories a bit differently than most* xtians or other bible thumpers.

    I do understand where you're coming from, you're not some Christian fundamentalist who looks at the Bible literally. You gather some wisdom from it and that's fine, I obviously have some issues with the Bible god and the world it "created", but you do have good points.

    I just question the setup of the world, and the more I do, the more convinced I am that this world is some kind of experiment, maybe an experiment gone wrong like Frankenstein or some shit. Maybe our higher power set up the booby traps of life to see how resilient people are, although I question the morality of our higher power too.

    It would be unethical for a scientist to operate on a conscious person, yet mother nature doesn't seem to have any ethics at all lol.....a creepy universe we live in. But a very interesting one too, for good and bad reasons.

    I lean more towards this being a simulated reality, like sims left to their own devices.
  • The Lonious MonkThe Lonious Monk Man with No Fucks Given Posts: 25,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting how you bring Christianity up here, didn't the Bible god say we're created "in his image"? So I would expect a little bit more empathy from such a being, unless it thinks the absentee parent role is cool. I kind of rag on Christianity because the Bible gives characteristics to "god" that seem completely false in the reality of the world. Can you admit the Bible god lied when it said it "loves and cares" for all things? Because if you can admit that, then that would be fair, considering the state of the world.

    Otherwise, I agree that whatever god or higher power that's out there likely is focused on other things, but it could be just as likely that maybe it CANNOT do much here on Earth. Especially since the kind of god you believe in has completely disappeared and hasn't shown up for a long time, if ever.

    We are created in his likeness. What exactly that means isn't is clear or simple as some suggest. But there is no reason to go back and forth on this any more with you. You continue to treat God as if he's human or as if you have insight on everything that comes from God's perspective. As long as you continue to think that way, there will be no resolution to the issues that you have. As soon as you start to understand that if there is a Higher Power that is beyond us, sees things from a perspective we don't or can't, and has information that we may not even be able to understand let alone access, then you'll start to see why your arguments don't hold any weight.

    Basically, you're treating God like a human with a lot of power, and so from that regard, your questions make sense because you expect God to behave like a human would. The problem is that God is not human, does not think like a human, and isn't limited in the ways that humans are, so you assessments on how he should behave based on how humans behave doesn't make any sense.
    Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
    But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
    When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
    as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

    m63Y62.gif
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @kingblaze84 you know I don't ascribe to the wacked out bible god who behaves more human than human so sometimes it's hard for me to have a convo about this stuff cuz I see the bible and it stories a bit differently than most* xtians or other bible thumpers.

    I do understand where you're coming from, you're not some Christian fundamentalist who looks at the Bible literally. You gather some wisdom from it and that's fine, I obviously have some issues with the Bible god and the world it "created", but you do have good points.

    I just question the setup of the world, and the more I do, the more convinced I am that this world is some kind of experiment, maybe an experiment gone wrong like Frankenstein or some shit. Maybe our higher power set up the booby traps of life to see how resilient people are, although I question the morality of our higher power too.

    It would be unethical for a scientist to operate on a conscious person, yet mother nature doesn't seem to have any ethics at all lol.....a creepy universe we live in. But a very interesting one too, for good and bad reasons.

    I lean more towards this being a simulated reality, like sims left to their own devices.

    A simulated reality with pitfalls and trapfloors on almost every corner lol
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5

    Interesting how you bring Christianity up here, didn't the Bible god say we're created "in his image"? So I would expect a little bit more empathy from such a being, unless it thinks the absentee parent role is cool. I kind of rag on Christianity because the Bible gives characteristics to "god" that seem completely false in the reality of the world. Can you admit the Bible god lied when it said it "loves and cares" for all things? Because if you can admit that, then that would be fair, considering the state of the world.

    Otherwise, I agree that whatever god or higher power that's out there likely is focused on other things, but it could be just as likely that maybe it CANNOT do much here on Earth. Especially since the kind of god you believe in has completely disappeared and hasn't shown up for a long time, if ever.

    We are created in his likeness. What exactly that means isn't is clear or simple as some suggest. But there is no reason to go back and forth on this any more with you. You continue to treat God as if he's human or as if you have insight on everything that comes from God's perspective. As long as you continue to think that way, there will be no resolution to the issues that you have. As soon as you start to understand that if there is a Higher Power that is beyond us, sees things from a perspective we don't or can't, and has information that we may not even be able to understand let alone access, then you'll start to see why your arguments don't hold any weight.

    Basically, you're treating God like a human with a lot of power, and so from that regard, your questions make sense because you expect God to behave like a human would. The problem is that God is not human, does not think like a human, and isn't limited in the ways that humans are, so you assessments on how he should behave based on how humans behave doesn't make any sense.

    So the universe has its reasons as to why millions of children will be infected and killed by parasites the universe itself makes.

    Then again, Adam Lanza had his reasons for shooting up all those kids in the elementary school. Ethics and morality are things that don't apply to gods now. Yet people are supposed to be ethical and moral? Why? After all, the creator you believe in won't explain why millions of children get infected and paralyzed and die brutal deaths by biological agents all the time.

    Maybe you are right, things like morality and ethics are human concepts that don't in actuality matter to the universe. Right? So in an odd way, maybe what Adam Lanza did wasn't all that bad. After all, your god drowned millions of people, children included. Still does, apparently.
  • BiblicalAtheist BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsPosts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5
    @kingblaze84 you know I don't ascribe to the wacked out bible god who behaves more human than human so sometimes it's hard for me to have a convo about this stuff cuz I see the bible and it stories a bit differently than most* xtians or other bible thumpers.

    I do understand where you're coming from, you're not some Christian fundamentalist who looks at the Bible literally. You gather some wisdom from it and that's fine, I obviously have some issues with the Bible god and the world it "created", but you do have good points.

    I just question the setup of the world, and the more I do, the more convinced I am that this world is some kind of experiment, maybe an experiment gone wrong like Frankenstein or some shit. Maybe our higher power set up the booby traps of life to see how resilient people are, although I question the morality of our higher power too.

    It would be unethical for a scientist to operate on a conscious person, yet mother nature doesn't seem to have any ethics at all lol.....a creepy universe we live in. But a very interesting one too, for good and bad reasons.

    I lean more towards this being a simulated reality, like sims left to their own devices.

    A simulated reality with pitfalls and trapfloors on almost every corner lol

    Idk about but I like challenging games, not games where* there is no risk.
  • The Lonious MonkThe Lonious Monk Man with No Fucks Given Posts: 25,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting how you bring Christianity up here, didn't the Bible god say we're created "in his image"? So I would expect a little bit more empathy from such a being, unless it thinks the absentee parent role is cool. I kind of rag on Christianity because the Bible gives characteristics to "god" that seem completely false in the reality of the world. Can you admit the Bible god lied when it said it "loves and cares" for all things? Because if you can admit that, then that would be fair, considering the state of the world.

    Otherwise, I agree that whatever god or higher power that's out there likely is focused on other things, but it could be just as likely that maybe it CANNOT do much here on Earth. Especially since the kind of god you believe in has completely disappeared and hasn't shown up for a long time, if ever.

    We are created in his likeness. What exactly that means isn't is clear or simple as some suggest. But there is no reason to go back and forth on this any more with you. You continue to treat God as if he's human or as if you have insight on everything that comes from God's perspective. As long as you continue to think that way, there will be no resolution to the issues that you have. As soon as you start to understand that if there is a Higher Power that is beyond us, sees things from a perspective we don't or can't, and has information that we may not even be able to understand let alone access, then you'll start to see why your arguments don't hold any weight.

    Basically, you're treating God like a human with a lot of power, and so from that regard, your questions make sense because you expect God to behave like a human would. The problem is that God is not human, does not think like a human, and isn't limited in the ways that humans are, so you assessments on how he should behave based on how humans behave doesn't make any sense.

    So the universe has its reasons as to why millions of children will be infected and killed by parasites the universe itself makes.

    Then again, Adam Lanza had his reasons for shooting up all those kids in the elementary school. Ethics and morality are things that don't apply to gods now. Yet people are supposed to be ethical and moral? Why? After all, the creator you believe in won't explain why millions of children get infected and paralyzed and die brutal deaths by biological agents all the time.

    Maybe you are right, things like morality and ethics are human concepts that don't in actuality matter to the universe. Right? So in an odd way, maybe what Adam Lanza did wasn't all that bad. After all, your god drowned millions of people, children included. Still does, apparently.

    Why does God have to explain any of that to you. And why do you assume that our morality or ethics apply to God? Again, you're not talking about a God, just accept it. You're talking about an overpowered human because at no point are you even willing to consider that what applies to humans doesn't and shouldn't apply to something far beyond human.

    You're basically saying God is immoral for making a world with sources of misery. Such a concern is beyond our standards of morality because we don't even have that kind of capability. Since we don't have such a capability, we are fully understanding the consequences of such an action, so it is impossible for us to make moral judgement.
    Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
    But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
    When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
    as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

    m63Y62.gif
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @kingblaze84 you know I don't ascribe to the wacked out bible god who behaves more human than human so sometimes it's hard for me to have a convo about this stuff cuz I see the bible and it stories a bit differently than most* xtians or other bible thumpers.

    I do understand where you're coming from, you're not some Christian fundamentalist who looks at the Bible literally. You gather some wisdom from it and that's fine, I obviously have some issues with the Bible god and the world it "created", but you do have good points.

    I just question the setup of the world, and the more I do, the more convinced I am that this world is some kind of experiment, maybe an experiment gone wrong like Frankenstein or some shit. Maybe our higher power set up the booby traps of life to see how resilient people are, although I question the morality of our higher power too.

    It would be unethical for a scientist to operate on a conscious person, yet mother nature doesn't seem to have any ethics at all lol.....a creepy universe we live in. But a very interesting one too, for good and bad reasons.

    I lean more towards this being a simulated reality, like sims left to their own devices.

    A simulated reality with pitfalls and trapfloors on almost every corner lol

    Idk about but I like challenging games, not games where* there is no risk.

    Some people get a cheat code in life and some get total disasters. A game where some are set up to fail, like cows and baby chickens on a farm. Bizarre but maybe there's some meaning behind all this.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting how you bring Christianity up here, didn't the Bible god say we're created "in his image"? So I would expect a little bit more empathy from such a being, unless it thinks the absentee parent role is cool. I kind of rag on Christianity because the Bible gives characteristics to "god" that seem completely false in the reality of the world. Can you admit the Bible god lied when it said it "loves and cares" for all things? Because if you can admit that, then that would be fair, considering the state of the world.

    Otherwise, I agree that whatever god or higher power that's out there likely is focused on other things, but it could be just as likely that maybe it CANNOT do much here on Earth. Especially since the kind of god you believe in has completely disappeared and hasn't shown up for a long time, if ever.

    We are created in his likeness. What exactly that means isn't is clear or simple as some suggest. But there is no reason to go back and forth on this any more with you. You continue to treat God as if he's human or as if you have insight on everything that comes from God's perspective. As long as you continue to think that way, there will be no resolution to the issues that you have. As soon as you start to understand that if there is a Higher Power that is beyond us, sees things from a perspective we don't or can't, and has information that we may not even be able to understand let alone access, then you'll start to see why your arguments don't hold any weight.

    Basically, you're treating God like a human with a lot of power, and so from that regard, your questions make sense because you expect God to behave like a human would. The problem is that God is not human, does not think like a human, and isn't limited in the ways that humans are, so you assessments on how he should behave based on how humans behave doesn't make any sense.

    So the universe has its reasons as to why millions of children will be infected and killed by parasites the universe itself makes.

    Then again, Adam Lanza had his reasons for shooting up all those kids in the elementary school. Ethics and morality are things that don't apply to gods now. Yet people are supposed to be ethical and moral? Why? After all, the creator you believe in won't explain why millions of children get infected and paralyzed and die brutal deaths by biological agents all the time.

    Maybe you are right, things like morality and ethics are human concepts that don't in actuality matter to the universe. Right? So in an odd way, maybe what Adam Lanza did wasn't all that bad. After all, your god drowned millions of people, children included. Still does, apparently.

    Why does God have to explain any of that to you. And why do you assume that our morality or ethics apply to God? Again, you're not talking about a God, just accept it. You're talking about an overpowered human because at no point are you even willing to consider that what applies to humans doesn't and shouldn't apply to something far beyond human.

    You're basically saying God is immoral for making a world with sources of misery. Such a concern is beyond our standards of morality because we don't even have that kind of capability. Since we don't have such a capability, we are fully understanding the consequences of such an action, so it is impossible for us to make moral judgement.

    I get your long term point, which is that morality and ethics are human concepts. From a universal point of view, there is no morality or ethics, right? So technically, there's nothing wrong with infecting a baby with a brain eating parasite lol. If a parent puts arsenic in her child's food, we make that person go to jail for some reason. But the gods are not bogged down by silly little things like morality and ethics, things which don't exist for higher powers I guess, according to you at least.

    I never called god immoral, though I do believe the Bible god is immoral for sure, if it is real or was real. We have the capability of logic and reasoning, so I do believe that people can make judgments about the world and its system. I don't know why the world is the way it is, but using my logic, it is possible that this world is the best the gods could do. Or maybe we're in an experiment where ethics don't matter and maybe this is all entertainment to higher powers out there. I won't call such gods immoral because after all, evil and morality are not real things. Right?
  • The Lonious MonkThe Lonious Monk Man with No Fucks Given Posts: 25,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I get your long term point, which is that morality and ethics are human concepts. From a universal point of view, there is no morality or ethics, right? So technically, there's nothing wrong with infecting a baby with a brain eating parasite lol. If a parent puts arsenic in her child's food, we make that person go to jail for some reason. But the gods are not bogged down by silly little things like morality and ethics, things which don't exist for higher powers I guess, according to you at least.

    I never called god immoral, though I do believe the Bible god is immoral for sure, if it is real or was real. We have the capability of logic and reasoning, so I do believe that people can make judgments about the world and its system. I don't know why the world is the way it is, but using my logic, it is possible that this world is the best the gods could do. Or maybe we're in an experiment where ethics don't matter and maybe this is all entertainment to higher powers out there. I won't call such gods immoral because after all, evil and morality are not real things. Right?

    You sort of get what I'm saying but not really. From a Christian standpoint, morality and ethics come down to God's Law. His commandments, particularly how they were identified in the New Testament is the foundation of our morality. So I'm not saying that God or a god has no concept or say in our morality. I'm saying that we can't assume that everything we deem to be issues of morality are the same for a godlike being.

    In your example, you compare God infecting a baby with a brain eating parasite (something no one but you even claims happens) to a parent putting arsenic in her child's food. We can pass judgement on the human because we understand the full scope of what the parent did, the consequences of what was done, and to some degree the motivations behind what was done. The same can't be said about God's actions. Maybe God does infect some babies with brain eating parasites. That seems evil, but what if he does that to bring others to salvation and so that baby's sacrifice resulted in eternal life not only just for the baby, but for those that found God through the baby's struggle. I personally might still think that's kinda messed up, but the point is I can't say why God does what he does, so how can I judge the morality of his actions? You speak on logic, but you can't make a logical conclusion about something without the necessary supporting information.
    Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
    But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
    When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
    as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

    m63Y62.gif
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I get your long term point, which is that morality and ethics are human concepts. From a universal point of view, there is no morality or ethics, right? So technically, there's nothing wrong with infecting a baby with a brain eating parasite lol. If a parent puts arsenic in her child's food, we make that person go to jail for some reason. But the gods are not bogged down by silly little things like morality and ethics, things which don't exist for higher powers I guess, according to you at least.

    I never called god immoral, though I do believe the Bible god is immoral for sure, if it is real or was real. We have the capability of logic and reasoning, so I do believe that people can make judgments about the world and its system. I don't know why the world is the way it is, but using my logic, it is possible that this world is the best the gods could do. Or maybe we're in an experiment where ethics don't matter and maybe this is all entertainment to higher powers out there. I won't call such gods immoral because after all, evil and morality are not real things. Right?

    You sort of get what I'm saying but not really. From a Christian standpoint, morality and ethics come down to God's Law. His commandments, particularly how they were identified in the New Testament is the foundation of our morality. So I'm not saying that God or a god has no concept or say in our morality. I'm saying that we can't assume that everything we deem to be issues of morality are the same for a godlike being.

    In your example, you compare God infecting a baby with a brain eating parasite (something no one but you even claims happens) to a parent putting arsenic in her child's food. We can pass judgement on the human because we understand the full scope of what the parent did, the consequences of what was done, and to some degree the motivations behind what was done. The same can't be said about God's actions. Maybe God does infect some babies with brain eating parasites. That seems evil, but what if he does that to bring others to salvation and so that baby's sacrifice resulted in eternal life not only just for the baby, but for those that found God through the baby's struggle. I personally might still think that's kinda messed up, but the point is I can't say why God does what he does, so how can I judge the morality of his actions? You speak on logic, but you can't make a logical conclusion about something without the necessary supporting information.

    That's interesting, but that technically makes your god evil, because if it IS AWARE of the principle of ethics and morality, then why is it that nature itself has zero sense of ethics for the most part?

    You admit that your god creating parasites that infect babies is messed up, yet your god creates millions of parasites and harmful bacteria every day, BEING AWARE that these parasites will make it into the bodies of innocent kids and adults. That is no different then a parent who feeds their child arsenic because they want their child to "go to heaven" or be in a better place. The universe doesn't seem to care about ethics, feelings, or morality itself, how else do you explain evil winning so often, as your "aware" god does nothing?

    You have a good point in that WE DO NOT KNOW your god's reasoning behind things, but you claim your god is aware of things. If a police officer is aware of a rape in progress and sees it happening with his or her own eyes and does nothing, how would we look at that cop? If "god" is truly aware of what is going on, then why isn't it possible that your god is the most sadistic and craven madman genius of all time?

    Who else sits and watches the atrocious behavior of nature and humankind, and creates more misery on purpose? It seems the kind of god you believe in is like a Nazi scientist in WW2. They KNOW their experiments cause IMMENSE suffering, but choose to observe and watch the results out of.......curiosity?
    sunlord
  • sunlordsunlord Posts: 125 ✭✭
    For god to stop all the evil in the world he would have to strip us of free will and that would be counter productive to what he wanted. I believe god wants freewill creatures that will freely choose to do good and to freely choose him Now if god came down and prevented man from doing evil when evil is want we want to do then that would be counter productive to his desires.
  • sunlordsunlord Posts: 125 ✭✭
    The argument that nature is evil or bad makes no sense because a hurricane has no will of it's own and parasites are devoid of intelligence. Good and evil is a matter of will and judgement on human actions.

    Nature is indifferent like the bible says it rains on both the righteous and wicked.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    sunlord wrote: »
    For god to stop all the evil in the world he would have to strip us of free will and that would be counter productive to what he wanted. I believe god wants freewill creatures that will freely choose to do good and to freely choose him Now if god came down and prevented man from doing evil when evil is want we want to do then that would be counter productive to his desires.

    That once again proves that the universe allows evil to flourish, when the Tasmanians, who mostly kept to themselves, were attacked by the British colonialists and lost, it proved that the number one rule in the universe is might makes right. Evil has had a very long winning streak for a long time now, there is no real justice in history.

    The British fucked over the Aboriginals in Australia too, and how does the universe reward the Aboriginals? By living in horrible conditions compared to the British who took over their most prized land and resources LOL.....if your god is real, then it's kind of funny how it lets the bad guys win almost ALL the time.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8
    sunlord wrote: »
    The argument that nature is evil or bad makes no sense because a hurricane has no will of it's own and parasites are devoid of intelligence. Good and evil is a matter of will and judgement on human actions.

    Nature is indifferent like the bible says it rains on both the righteous and wicked.

    I agree nature is indifferent most of the time, though it shows some favor to some (some are naturally stronger then others).

    I didn't say nature is evil though, I said if the Bible god is real, then that kind of god is evil or at least half evil, since Christians claim the Christian god is AWARE of conditions on Earth, yet it still creates hurricanes and BILLIONS of parasites knowing they cause extreme pain and agony out there.

    If I created a super virus and threw it over a crowd in Times Square or a major city, knowing that virus would cause extreme pain and death to millions, how would society look at me? Would I be looked at as a good person......?
  • sunlordsunlord Posts: 125 ✭✭
    sunlord wrote: »
    For god to stop all the evil in the world he would have to strip us of free will and that would be counter productive to what he wanted. I believe god wants freewill creatures that will freely choose to do good and to freely choose him Now if god came down and prevented man from doing evil when evil is want we want to do then that would be counter productive to his desires.

    That once again proves that the universe allows evil to flourish, when the Tasmanians, who mostly kept to themselves, were attacked by the British colonialists and lost, it proved that the number one rule in the universe is might makes right. Evil has had a very long winning streak for a long time now, there is no real justice in history.

    The British fucked over the Aboriginals in Australia too, and how does the universe reward the Aboriginals? By living in horrible conditions compared to the British who took over their most prized land and resources LOL.....if your god is real, then it's kind of funny how it lets the bad guys win almost ALL the time.

    You see it that way because you are very carnal minded but when innocents die their killers don't get anything of value to god. In addition you don't know what happened in the hearts and minds of those killers after they committed those atrocities, you don't know how miserable their personal lives could have been. God knows what happens in the dark heart of man and how he sometimes brings about the hidden punishment of the wicked.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopPosts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    For god to stop all the evil in the world he would have to strip us of free will and that would be counter productive to what he wanted. I believe god wants freewill creatures that will freely choose to do good and to freely choose him Now if god came down and prevented man from doing evil when evil is want we want to do then that would be counter productive to his desires.

    That once again proves that the universe allows evil to flourish, when the Tasmanians, who mostly kept to themselves, were attacked by the British colonialists and lost, it proved that the number one rule in the universe is might makes right. Evil has had a very long winning streak for a long time now, there is no real justice in history.

    The British fucked over the Aboriginals in Australia too, and how does the universe reward the Aboriginals? By living in horrible conditions compared to the British who took over their most prized land and resources LOL.....if your god is real, then it's kind of funny how it lets the bad guys win almost ALL the time.

    You see it that way because you are very carnal minded but when innocents die their killers don't get anything of value to god. In addition you don't know what happened in the hearts and minds of those killers after they committed those atrocities, you don't know how miserable their personal lives could have been. God knows what happens in the dark heart of man and how he sometimes brings about the hidden punishment of the wicked.

    You called me carnal minded twice now, what's that supposed to mean? I think only on Earthly terms? Well here's a newsflash, ALL of us think carnal minded. Being religious doesn't mean you stop being a person who eats, sleeps and does everything else people do.

    Anyway, you're making a lot of assumptions about your god, what hidden punishments of the wicked? Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand got rich after the Native Americans got slaughtered and robbed, King Leopold killed about 9 million people from the Congo and he lived a long, wealthy, and healthy life till age 71, well ahead of his time age wise. There are several serial killers who never got caught and many of them feel pleasure killing, they don't really suffer from nightmares or whatever from what they've done.

    You probably should do some reading on sociopaths and psychopaths, they often get pleasure after killing their victims, Columbus was likely a sociopath and so were many of the conquistadors. Columbus had no problem sex trafficking 9 and 10 year old Native American girls. Many of the conquistador followers lived long lives with lots of riches, slaves, and women. Not sure what you are talking about.
  • sunlordsunlord Posts: 125 ✭✭
    edited November 9
    sunlord wrote: »
    sunlord wrote: »
    For god to stop all the evil in the world he would have to strip us of free will and that would be counter productive to what he wanted. I believe god wants freewill creatures that will freely choose to do good and to freely choose him Now if god came down and prevented man from doing evil when evil is want we want to do then that would be counter productive to his desires.

    That once again proves that the universe allows evil to flourish, when the Tasmanians, who mostly kept to themselves, were attacked by the British colonialists and lost, it proved that the number one rule in the universe is might makes right. Evil has had a very long winning streak for a long time now, there is no real justice in history.

    The British fucked over the Aboriginals in Australia too, and how does the universe reward the Aboriginals? By living in horrible conditions compared to the British who took over their most prized land and resources LOL.....if your god is real, then it's kind of funny how it lets the bad guys win almost ALL the time.

    You see it that way because you are very carnal minded but when innocents die their killers don't get anything of value to god. In addition you don't know what happened in the hearts and minds of those killers after they committed those atrocities, you don't know how miserable their personal lives could have been. God knows what happens in the dark heart of man and how he sometimes brings about the hidden punishment of the wicked.

    You called me carnal minded twice now, what's that supposed to mean? I think only on Earthly terms? Well here's a newsflash, ALL of us think carnal minded. Being religious doesn't mean you stop being a person who eats, sleeps and does everything else people do.

    Anyway, you're making a lot of assumptions about your god, what hidden punishments of the wicked? Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand got rich after the Native Americans got slaughtered and robbed, King Leopold killed about 9 million people from the Congo and he lived a long, wealthy, and healthy life till age 71, well ahead of his time age wise. There are several serial killers who never got caught and many of them feel pleasure killing, they don't really suffer from nightmares or whatever from what they've done.

    You probably should do some reading on sociopaths and psychopaths, they often get pleasure after killing their victims, Columbus was likely a sociopath and so were many of the conquistadors. Columbus had no problem sex trafficking 9 and 10 year old Native American girls. Many of the conquistador followers lived long lives with lots of riches, slaves, and women. Not sure what you are talking about.

    PEOPLE who honestly believe in god are capable of thinking in ways that go beyond the physical beastly human desires, that does not mean they don't have those human urges but it does mean they have something you seem to lack. A spiritual perspective makes someone TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM YOU because they are literally experiencing life/reality differently. The spiritual/religious person is only similar to you on a shallow level on the deeper level they are very different.

    I am not making assumptions the word of god clearly says they will be punished and not always just after death.... as for evil psychopaths they actually aren't happy with their lives, in fact they don't really feel anything in the way normal people can that in of it self is a curse. IRONICALLY studies suggest that many psychopaths suffer from depression and just about every serial killer has a horrible life/childhood which is why some of them ended up that way in the first place.

    there is a big difference between happiness and pleasure you can get pleasure doing meth but there aren't too many happy meth heads.
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