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Was Jesus referring to Yahweh/Jehovah or someone else???

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Replies

  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    waterproof wrote: »
    You dumb ass Abba is aramaic, lol only a matter of time before your hellenist spirit shows itself, how many spirits you have in you. I count two, one minute the satanist pagan hellenist sophia spirit shows itself, then the pauline greek doctrine spirit come out, and they all lash out against Yah, his prophets, his disciples, the rauch, yahushua and the word


    Obviously, you are speaking against the holy spirit, word, Paul, Yeshua, and the Father... How is that evil pharisee spirit? Lol


    2 Peter 3:15
    And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


    bambu
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    John 10:1-9

    10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

    2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

    3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

    5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

    6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

    7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

    8 ALL that EVER came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

    9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.





    .
    bambu
  • waterproofwaterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionPosts: 9,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2012
    U better decipher what peter was talking about, dont let me start posting scripture of peter and the disciples was rebuking paul. Paul said women should shut their mouth in church, slaves should obey their masters in which was used against hebrews for slavery and man with long hair is forbidden do u agree
    Your best rapper saying 'YES, MASSA', when they beat 'em - HELL RAZAH


    tumblr_molvoods6A1qeow5po1_500.jpg
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    waterproof wrote: »
    U better decipher what peter was talking about, dont let me start posting scripture of peter and the disciples was rebuking paul. Paul said women should shut their mouth in church, slaves should obey their masters in which was used against hebrews for slavery and man with long hair is forbidden do u agree


    It's clear to see that Peter is supporting the writings of Paul in 2 Peter 3:15.. And I already told you that the KJV Bible was compiled and revised by the Romans at the Council of Nicea. They are the ones that selected which gospels would go into the New Testament, so I don't doubt they changed words in those gospels. Which is why I had been saying I would rather research into ancient gospels instead of being ignorant and only relying on the KJV which has been promoted by the Roman Catholic Church for hundreds of years. You are the one condeming me for researching into ancient gospels saying I am a demon and etc because we don't hold the same views on scripture.

    bambu
  • judahxulujudahxulu Posts: 3,988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    beenwize wrote: »
    judahxulu wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    waterproof wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    Another scripture by the brother Paul admitting to being a Pharisee and a Israelite.


    Acts 23:6
    But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

    Romans 11:1
    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    you dumb ass that's because he was about to be killed by a pharisee and he let them know that he was one of them, lol.... i told you about shaul you stupid ass, the pharisee's that sit in Moses seat was not hebrew according to scripture and Yahushua and when shit about to hit the fan he his true colors showed, he's a roman and a pharisee, scriptures calls hebrews like that scropions

    LMBO, this is the biggest laugh I had all day. Obviously you have something in your spirit that's preventing you from accepting the truth. Paul, who wrote half of the New Testament admits to being a pharisee and a Israelite but still waterproof cannot accept the truth.

    Are you blinded?

    Why would your god allow a false Apostle to write half of the New Testament? Lol

    I am done with you... You are a joke and a waste of time.


    Peace :)

    Nigga there you go with this false premise shit. Show me where Yahwah allows or disallows people to write what the fuck they want. Man has free will nigga.

    Im a Maritan and a metallurgist. Jesus came to me in a vision and told me to tell you what he said. No what Im saying is opposite to what the people whop taught him said but you should believe me because I seen him in a vision on the side of Martin Luther King Blvd...

    Nigga thats how stupid that Pauline doctrine sounds to the studied....


    Don't play stupid now.. The KJV or any other similar Bible has been the main book used in African American churches and elsewhere across the world. So my question is, why is Paul allowed to write half of the New Testament if you say he is a false Apostle? Most religious literature that blacks and other people have used throughout the world has included the New Testament and Paul.. Moses heard a voice out of a burning bush so I guess you're saying it's impossible for Paul to hear a voice just because your DOCTRINE does not agree with what he taught.


    Are you saying Yeshua was lying to Paul in the scripture below?



    Acts 26:14
    And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


    Acts 26:15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' "'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied.
    ===========================




    And if the KJV Bible, New Testament, and Paul are all FALSE as you claim then WHERE IS YOUR GOD INSPIRED RELIGIOUS LITERATURE ?? You keep ignoring that question.

    .

    Can you read nigga? Paul was allowed to write whatever the fuck he wanted to because we have free will. Aint no most religious people use shit..Fake ass nigga using words like "most" with no numbers to back it up. I dont have a doctrine. Pauls writings are illigetimate purely on their own meit, or lack thereof. The new testament is illegitimate. Constantine made that up. Constantine was not ordained by the Creator. Truth is simple. There is no religious literature nigga. I read the Tanach and other books. Every individual book has a different author or authors, different motivations, historical periods etc. I take all that into consideration per individual book and actually put in the long hours figuring out. The biggest question is why are you going so hard on the subject but you havent done that and you dont know shit about the original texts in Hebrew or Greek. It amazes me how in your own heart you would even dare form an opinion or much less speak on such matters without thoroughly investigating. It boggles the mind...
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    judahxulu wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    judahxulu wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    waterproof wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    Another scripture by the brother Paul admitting to being a Pharisee and a Israelite.


    Acts 23:6
    But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

    Romans 11:1
    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    you dumb ass that's because he was about to be killed by a pharisee and he let them know that he was one of them, lol.... i told you about shaul you stupid ass, the pharisee's that sit in Moses seat was not hebrew according to scripture and Yahushua and when shit about to hit the fan he his true colors showed, he's a roman and a pharisee, scriptures calls hebrews like that scropions

    LMBO, this is the biggest laugh I had all day. Obviously you have something in your spirit that's preventing you from accepting the truth. Paul, who wrote half of the New Testament admits to being a pharisee and a Israelite but still waterproof cannot accept the truth.

    Are you blinded?

    Why would your god allow a false Apostle to write half of the New Testament? Lol

    I am done with you... You are a joke and a waste of time.


    Peace :)

    Nigga there you go with this false premise shit. Show me where Yahwah allows or disallows people to write what the fuck they want. Man has free will nigga.

    Im a Maritan and a metallurgist. Jesus came to me in a vision and told me to tell you what he said. No what Im saying is opposite to what the people whop taught him said but you should believe me because I seen him in a vision on the side of Martin Luther King Blvd...

    Nigga thats how stupid that Pauline doctrine sounds to the studied....


    Don't play stupid now.. The KJV or any other similar Bible has been the main book used in African American churches and elsewhere across the world. So my question is, why is Paul allowed to write half of the New Testament if you say he is a false Apostle? Most religious literature that blacks and other people have used throughout the world has included the New Testament and Paul.. Moses heard a voice out of a burning bush so I guess you're saying it's impossible for Paul to hear a voice just because your DOCTRINE does not agree with what he taught.


    Are you saying Yeshua was lying to Paul in the scripture below?



    Acts 26:14
    And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


    Acts 26:15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' "'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied.
    ===========================




    And if the KJV Bible, New Testament, and Paul are all FALSE as you claim then WHERE IS YOUR GOD INSPIRED RELIGIOUS LITERATURE ?? You keep ignoring that question.

    .

    Can you read nigga? Paul was allowed to write whatever the fuck he wanted to because we have free will. Aint no most religious people use shit..Fake ass nigga using words like "most" with no numbers to back it up. I dont have a doctrine. Pauls writings are illigetimate purely on their own meit, or lack thereof. The new testament is illegitimate. Constantine made that up. Constantine was not ordained by the Creator. Truth is simple. There is no religious literature nigga. I read the Tanach and other books. Every individual book has a different author or authors, different motivations, historical periods etc. I take all that into consideration per individual book and actually put in the long hours figuring out. The biggest question is why are you going so hard on the subject but you havent done that and you dont know shit about the original texts in Hebrew or Greek. It amazes me how in your own heart you would even dare form an opinion or much less speak on such matters without thoroughly investigating. It boggles the mind...

    So you're saying your all knowing god ordained 400 year captivity for blacks and foresaw us being indoctrinated in a KJV Bible which you claim to be false. Also which contains what you say is a false Apostle. So now more ppl will be killed for not knowing which book to use. That makes a lot of sense and why I only worship Yeshua Father Abba. So the goal of a Tanach only Israelite is to pray to your god that you be among the remnants left after everyone else is put to death... I think I'm good going the way of Yeshua, he is the way, the truth, and the life.
    bambu
  • waterproofwaterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionPosts: 9,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How stupid are u, u is dumb, The 400 years was in the tanach a book that hebrews had that was written befor king james was even thought of. hebrews had the tanach a book that yahushua knew by heart
    Your best rapper saying 'YES, MASSA', when they beat 'em - HELL RAZAH


    tumblr_molvoods6A1qeow5po1_500.jpg
  • waterproofwaterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionPosts: 9,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And stop it with abba, yahushua aint never used that word in his life. U look real stupid trying to be all smart but active like a fool
    Your best rapper saying 'YES, MASSA', when they beat 'em - HELL RAZAH


    tumblr_molvoods6A1qeow5po1_500.jpg
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    judahxulu wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    judahxulu wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    waterproof wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    Another scripture by the brother Paul admitting to being a Pharisee and a Israelite.


    Acts 23:6
    But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

    Romans 11:1
    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    you dumb ass that's because he was about to be killed by a pharisee and he let them know that he was one of them, lol.... i told you about shaul you stupid ass, the pharisee's that sit in Moses seat was not hebrew according to scripture and Yahushua and when shit about to hit the fan he his true colors showed, he's a roman and a pharisee, scriptures calls hebrews like that scropions

    LMBO, this is the biggest laugh I had all day. Obviously you have something in your spirit that's preventing you from accepting the truth. Paul, who wrote half of the New Testament admits to being a pharisee and a Israelite but still waterproof cannot accept the truth.

    Are you blinded?

    Why would your god allow a false Apostle to write half of the New Testament? Lol

    I am done with you... You are a joke and a waste of time.


    Peace :)

    Nigga there you go with this false premise shit. Show me where Yahwah allows or disallows people to write what the fuck they want. Man has free will nigga.

    Im a Maritan and a metallurgist. Jesus came to me in a vision and told me to tell you what he said. No what Im saying is opposite to what the people whop taught him said but you should believe me because I seen him in a vision on the side of Martin Luther King Blvd...

    Nigga thats how stupid that Pauline doctrine sounds to the studied....


    Don't play stupid now.. The KJV or any other similar Bible has been the main book used in African American churches and elsewhere across the world. So my question is, why is Paul allowed to write half of the New Testament if you say he is a false Apostle? Most religious literature that blacks and other people have used throughout the world has included the New Testament and Paul.. Moses heard a voice out of a burning bush so I guess you're saying it's impossible for Paul to hear a voice just because your DOCTRINE does not agree with what he taught.


    Are you saying Yeshua was lying to Paul in the scripture below?



    Acts 26:14
    And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


    Acts 26:15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' "'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied.
    ===========================




    And if the KJV Bible, New Testament, and Paul are all FALSE as you claim then WHERE IS YOUR GOD INSPIRED RELIGIOUS LITERATURE ?? You keep ignoring that question.

    .

    Can you read nigga? Paul was allowed to write whatever the fuck he wanted to because we have free will. Aint no most religious people use shit..Fake ass nigga using words like "most" with no numbers to back it up. I dont have a doctrine. Pauls writings are illigetimate purely on their own meit, or lack thereof. The new testament is illegitimate. Constantine made that up. Constantine was not ordained by the Creator. Truth is simple. There is no religious literature nigga. I read the Tanach and other books. Every individual book has a different author or authors, different motivations, historical periods etc. I take all that into consideration per individual book and actually put in the long hours figuring out. The biggest question is why are you going so hard on the subject but you havent done that and you dont know shit about the original texts in Hebrew or Greek. It amazes me how in your own heart you would even dare form an opinion or much less speak on such matters without thoroughly investigating. It boggles the mind...

    I kinda understand why you don't believe the New Testament because when you look close at the so called prophecies based off the old testament they seem suspect. Which is why I was saying a few months ago that the New Testament was merged with the Old Testament to make it seem as if it was a fulfillment. At least you study tho and able to see these things unlike some other phonies. I still think the character of the New Testament is based off of someone that maybe came to reveal truth about the true Creator but was suppressed by the powers that be. I don't think the entire New Testament or book of Revelations is false tho because I don't hold the Old Testament or Tanach to be the sole truth in which everything else must be in agreement with. And religion and some of it's literature in my opinion seems to be the program of powerful other worldly entities rather than the one Almighty Creator or source of all life. just my thoughts.


    And if anything else it's just based on Astro-theology of different earth cycles from the end of one age to the next.
    bambu
  • waterproofwaterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionPosts: 9,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The gospels and acts lines up with the tanach, paul was not approved by Yahushua brother, the disciples and hebrews, if you can read you would of known that.
    Your best rapper saying 'YES, MASSA', when they beat 'em - HELL RAZAH


    tumblr_molvoods6A1qeow5po1_500.jpg
  • bambubambu *Earth & Water* Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bambu wrote: »
    1. 'Amen' is a transliteration of the Hebrew word 'amen'. Its BEEN transliterated as 'amen' in so many different languages early on it just started catch on like that even all the way to the languages of this day.

    Per Strong:
    Original Word: אָמֵן
    Part of Speech: adverb<----see this? it functions as an adverb - not a noun;
    Transliteration: amen
    Phonetic Spelling: (aw-mane')
    Short Definition: Amen
    amen: verily, truly<---see this?? No god there. It never meant that in the original Hebrew language. Oh, and Hebrew is the oldest language. Step back.

    Not true..... Hebrew is not the oldest language, I think the Sumerians, Egyptians,Akkkadians, Minoans and Hitties among others would argue your claim.....

    The correlation between the ancient Amun and its use in modern religion is no coincidence.

    Back to the Amun....

    I have never really heard it mentioned very much, but the Amun resided in Jebel Barker, modern Sudan, ancient Nubia.

    jb_image_003.jpg
    Jebel Barkal conceptualized in Egyptian art: Here Ramses II is shown making offerings to the god “Amun of Karnak,” seated inside the mountain; the pinnacle is rendered as a giant uraeus springing from the god’s throne.
    jb_image_004.jpg

    Any ancient cultures that acknowledged the Amun did so understanding its geography..... Nubian

    Carry on...





    Men need images..... Lacking them they invent idols.



  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    In addition to the New Testament and Old Testament not appearing to line up in every area does not surprise me.. According to the Gnostic Christians the Christ depicted in that book had nothing to do with the Old Testament.
    bambu
  • waterproofwaterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionPosts: 9,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The gnostic christian wasn't even around when christ walked the earth, they came 70-80 years after so how can they know anything. The gospels of the disciples and acts is continuing of the old testament, only paul letters go against the teachings of thetanach, that's why no hebrews followed paul,
    Your best rapper saying 'YES, MASSA', when they beat 'em - HELL RAZAH


    tumblr_molvoods6A1qeow5po1_500.jpg
  • lostsamuraisotaku lostsamuraisotaku Posts: 807 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    PAUL WAS A DISCIPLE OF SIMON BAR JESUS (SIMON THE SORCERER ) FURTHER MORE THE 4 GOSPELS ALL HAVE DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS OF THE CRUCIFICTION AND LUKE WASNT EVEN A ISRAELITE HE WAS A GENTILE lol INSHA THIS HELPS

  • lostsamuraisotaku lostsamuraisotaku Posts: 807 ✭✭
    You have the Jesus Christ who was born in a manger by Mary, the wife of Joseph. That is the Jesus most think they are following. This Jesus lived his childhood in Egypt until the age of 13, which by Judaic law is when a boy becomes a man. He used what he learned in Egypt (Matthew 2:14: Luke 1:80) to debate with the learnt men of his time (Luke 2:46 – 47). This is because of his understanding of the Judaic law being that these laws were adopted from the ancient Egyptian teachings of the 613 negative confessions.

    Then you have Bar Jesus (Acts 13:6). What most people don’t know is the word Bar in Hebrew means son. He was actually the son of Jesus, the son of Mary. What people still don’t know is that Jesus had a wife. He actually married Mary Magdalene. This was the wedding that occurred in the Gospel of John chapter 2. This is why Jesus’ mother Mary was so involved in the wedding. She was actually ordering the servants around telling them to do what Jesus tells them to do (John 2:5). This Jesus is the Jesus that Christians today are actually following. How? This is the Jesus Paul followed.

    In addition to those two Jesus’, there is another in Colossians 4:11. This Jesus was called Jesus Justus. He was actually the son of Marcus Antonius (Mark Anthony) and Cleopatra. This is the Jesus who also called Cleophas. He was the Jesus born on December 25, 1 A.D. in Mitzraim (Egypt). He was rejected by both Egyptians and Romans. He became known as Saint Isa, traveling throughout India teaching in the name of the real Jesus.

    What your Bible story does is combine all three of these men into one, creating this composite character called Jesus. They even managed to get the Hellenistic teachings into the religion. Any scholar will tell you that Jesus was called in his tongue Ya’shua. This name would transliterate into English as Joshua. So where does Jesus come from? It is a combination of the Israelite God Jah (Jehovah) and the Greek God Zeus, Jah-Zues or Jesus. This mixture of the Israelite religion and the Hellenistic religion occurred 300 years after the real Jesus walked the Earth during the Nicean Council headed by Emperor Constantine.

    I say the Jesus of Revelation because when it comes to the New Testament, the Book of Revelation is the only book that says it comes from God (Rev. 1:1). It says it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him. So this is obviously the real Jesus. Is this the Jesus you follow or have you been fooled like so many others? (Rev. 12:9)

  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    You have the Jesus Christ who was born in a manger by Mary, the wife of Joseph. That is the Jesus most think they are following. This Jesus lived his childhood in Egypt until the age of 13, which by Judaic law is when a boy becomes a man. He used what he learned in Egypt (Matthew 2:14: Luke 1:80) to debate with the learnt men of his time (Luke 2:46 – 47). This is because of his understanding of the Judaic law being that these laws were adopted from the ancient Egyptian teachings of the 613 negative confessions.

    Then you have Bar Jesus (Acts 13:6). What most people don’t know is the word Bar in Hebrew means son. He was actually the son of Jesus, the son of Mary. What people still don’t know is that Jesus had a wife. He actually married Mary Magdalene. This was the wedding that occurred in the Gospel of John chapter 2. This is why Jesus’ mother Mary was so involved in the wedding. She was actually ordering the servants around telling them to do what Jesus tells them to do (John 2:5). This Jesus is the Jesus that Christians today are actually following. How? This is the Jesus Paul followed.

    In addition to those two Jesus’, there is another in Colossians 4:11. This Jesus was called Jesus Justus. He was actually the son of Marcus Antonius (Mark Anthony) and Cleopatra. This is the Jesus who also called Cleophas. He was the Jesus born on December 25, 1 A.D. in Mitzraim (Egypt). He was rejected by both Egyptians and Romans. He became known as Saint Isa, traveling throughout India teaching in the name of the real Jesus.

    What your Bible story does is combine all three of these men into one, creating this composite character called Jesus. They even managed to get the Hellenistic teachings into the religion. Any scholar will tell you that Jesus was called in his tongue Ya’shua. This name would transliterate into English as Joshua. So where does Jesus come from? It is a combination of the Israelite God Jah (Jehovah) and the Greek God Zeus, Jah-Zues or Jesus. This mixture of the Israelite religion and the Hellenistic religion occurred 300 years after the real Jesus walked the Earth during the Nicean Council headed by Emperor Constantine.

    I say the Jesus of Revelation because when it comes to the New Testament, the Book of Revelation is the only book that says it comes from God (Rev. 1:1). It says it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him. So this is obviously the real Jesus. Is this the Jesus you follow or have you been fooled like so many others? (Rev. 12:9)


    I've heard similar stories that their are different Jesus characters in the New Testament. Lol
    bambu
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    waterproof wrote: »
    The gnostic christian wasn't even around when christ walked the earth, they came 70-80 years after so how can they know anything. The gospels of the disciples and acts is continuing of the old testament, only paul letters go against the teachings of thetanach, that's why no hebrews followed paul,


    Gnostic Christians were around before and after he came to earth because it had it's foundations in Ancient Egypt hundreds of years prior.. The Ancient Egyptians had knowledge of many different Christ beings, not only the one depicted in the New Testament. The Gospel of Thomas which is Gnostic and was found in the Nag Hammadi Codex, is believed by many Bible scholars to be older than any of the gospels in the New Testament.


    Richard Valantasis writes:
    Assigning a date to the Gospel of Thomas is very complex because it is difficult to know precisely to what a date is being assigned. Scholars have proposed a date as early as AD 40 or as late as AD 140, depending upon whether the Gospel of Thomas is identified with the original core of sayings, or with the author's published text, or with the Greek or Coptic texts, or with parallels in other literature.[28]
    Valantasis and other scholars argue that it is difficult to date Thomas because, as a collection of logia without a narrative framework, individual sayings could have been added to it gradually over time.[29] (However, Valantasis does date Thomas to 100–110 AD, with some of the material certainly coming from the first stratum which is dated to 30–60 AD.[30])

    [edit]The early camp
    Robert E. Van Voorst states:
    Most interpreters place its writing in the second century, understanding that many of its oral traditions are much older.[31]
    Scholars generally fall into one of two main camps: an "early camp" favoring a date for the "core" of between the years 50 and 100, before or approximately contemporary with the composition of the canonical gospels and a "late camp" favoring a date in the 2nd century, after composition of the canonical gospels. The vast majority of mainstream scholars fall in to the "late" camp[32][33]


    [edit]Form of the gospel
    Theissen and Merz argue the genre of a collection of sayings was one of the earliest forms in which material about Jesus was handed down.[34] They assert that other collections of sayings, such as the Q document and the collection underlying Mark 4, were absorbed into larger narratives and no longer survive as independent documents, and that no later collections in this form survive.[34] Meyer also asserts that the genre of a "sayings collection" is indicative of the 1st century,[35] and that in particular the "use of parables without allegorical amplification" seems to antedate the canonical gospels.[35] Maurice Casey has strongly questioned the argument from genre: the "logic of the argument requires that Q and the Gospel of Thomas be also dated at the same time as both the book of Proverbs and the Sayings of Amen-em-Opet!"[36]


    [edit]Independence from Synoptic Gospels
    Stevan L. Davies argues that the apparent independence of the ordering of sayings in Thomas from that of their parallels in the synoptics shows that Thomas was most likely not reliant upon the canonical Gospels and probably predated them.[37] Several authors argue that when the logia in Thomas do have parallels in the synoptics the version in Thomas often seems closer to the source. Theissen and Merz give sayings 31 and 65 as examples of this.[34] Koester agrees, citing especially the parables contained in sayings 8, 9, 57, 63, 64 and 65.[38] In the few instances where the version in Thomas seems to be dependent on the Synoptics, Koester suggests, this may be due to the influence of the person who translated the text from Greek into Coptic.[38]
    Koester also argues that the absence of narrative materials (such as those found in the canonical gospels) in Thomas makes it unlikely that the gospel is "an eclectic excerpt from the gospels of the New Testament".[38] He also cites the absence of the eschatological sayings considered characteristic of Q to show the independence of Thomas from that source.[38]


    bambu
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    Yaldabaoth (whom gnostics identified as god of old testament)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurg


    A lion-faced deity found on a Gnostic gem in Bernard de Montfaucon’s L’antiquité expliquée et représentée en figures may be a depiction of the Demiurge.
    In the Ophite and Sethian systems, which have many affinities with that last mentioned, the making of the world is ascribed to a company of seven archons, whose names are given, but their chief, “Yaldabaoth” (also known as "Yaltabaoth" or "Ialdabaoth") comes into still greater prominence.

    In the Apocryphon of John circa 120-180 AD, the Demiurge arrogantly declares that he has made the world by himself:
    Now the archon (ruler) who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas (“fool”), and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. ]For he said, "I am God and there is no other God beside me," for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.

    He is Demiurge and maker of man, but as a ray of light from above enters the body of man and gives him a soul, Yaldabaoth is filled with envy; he tries to limit man's knowledge by forbidding him the fruit of knowledge in paradise. The Demiurge, fearing lest Jesus, whom he had intended as his Messiah, should spread the knowledge of the Supreme God, had him crucified by the Romans. ]At the consummation of all things all light will return to the Pleroma. But Yaldabaoth, the Demiurge, with the material world, will be cast into the lower depths.

    In Pistis Sophia Yaldabaoth has already sunk from his high estate and resides in Chaos, where, with his forty-nine demons, he tortures wicked souls in boiling rivers of pitch, and with other punishments (pp. 257, 382). He is an archon with the face of a lion, half flame and half darkness.
    Yaldabaoth is frequently called "the Lion-faced", leontoeides, with the body of a serpent. We are told also,[24] that the Demiurge is of a fiery nature, the words of Moses being applied to him, “the Lord our God is a burning and consuming fire,” a text used also by Simon.[25]

    Under the name of Nebro (rebel), Yaldabaoth is called an angel in the apocryphal Gospel of Judas. He is first mentioned in “The Cosmos, Chaos, and the Underworld” as one of the twelve angels to come “into being [to] rule over chaos and the [underworld]”. He comes from heaven, his “face flashed with fire and whose appearance was defiled with blood”. Nebro creates six angels in addition to the angel Saklas to be his assistants. These six in turn create another twelve angels “with each one receiving a portion in the heavens.”
    bambu
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭

    The most probable derivation of the name “Yaldabaoth” is that given by Johann Karl Ludwig Gieseler, “Daughter of Chaos,” from Hebrew yalda bahut,ילדא בהות.

    “Samael” literally means “Blind God” or “God of the Blind” in Aramaic (Syriac sæmʻa-ʼel). This being is considered not only blind, or ignorant of its own origins, but may in addition be evil; its name is also found in Judaica as the Angel of Death and in Christian demonology. This leads to a further comparison with Satan. Another alternative title for the Demiurge, “Saklas,” is Aramaic for “fool” (Syriac sækla “the foolish one”).
    bambu
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012
    On the Origin of the World -- The Nag Hammadi Library

    http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

    On the Origin of the World, from The Nag Hammadi Library. This site includes the entire Nag Hammadi Library, as well as a large collection of other primary Gnostic scriptures and documents.

    Now when the heavens had consolidated themselves along with their forces and all their administration, the prime parent became insolent. And he was honored by all the army of angels. And all the gods and their angels gave blessing and honor to him. And for his part, he was delighted and continually boasted, saying to them, "I have no need of anyone." He said, "It is I who am God, and there is no other one that exists apart from me." And when he said this, he sinned against all the immortal beings who give answer. And they laid it to his charge.

    Then when Pistis saw the impiety of the chief ruler, she was filled with anger. She was invisible. She said, "You are mistaken, Samael," (that is, "blind god"). "There is an immortal man of light who has been in existence before you, and who will appear among your modelled forms; he will trample you to scorn, just as potter's clay is pounded. And you will descend to your mother, the abyss, along with those that belong to you. For at the consummation of your (pl.) works, the entire defect that has become visible out of the truth will be abolished, and it will cease to be, and will be like what has never been." Saying this, Pistis revealed her likeness of her greatness in the waters. And so doing, she withdrew up to her light.



    1 Corinthians 13:4-8
    4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
    bambu
  • bambubambu *Earth & Water* Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Men need images..... Lacking them they invent idols.



    beenwize
  • bambubambu *Earth & Water* Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2012
    beenwize wrote: »
    Yaldabaoth (whom gnostics identified as god of old testament)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge


    A lion-faced deity found on a Gnostic gem in Bernard de Montfaucon’s L’antiquité expliquée et représentée en figures may be a depiction of the Demiurge.
    In the Ophite and Sethian systems, which have many affinities with that last mentioned, the making of the world is ascribed to a company of seven archons, whose names are given, but their chief, “Yaldabaoth” (also known as "Yaltabaoth" or "Ialdabaoth") comes into still greater prominence.

    In the Apocryphon of John circa 120-180 AD, the Demiurge arrogantly declares that he has made the world by himself:
    Now the archon (ruler) who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas (“fool”), and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, "I am God and there is no other God beside me," for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.[23]

    He is Demiurge and maker of man, but as a ray of light from above enters the body of man and gives him a soul, Yaldabaoth is filled with envy; he tries to limit man's knowledge by forbidding him the fruit of knowledge in paradise. The Demiurge, fearing lest Jesus, whom he had intended as his Messiah, should spread the knowledge of the Supreme God, had him crucified by the Romans. At the consummation of all things all light will return to the Pleroma. But Yaldabaoth, the Demiurge, with the material world, will be cast into the lower depths.

    In Pistis Sophia Yaldabaoth has already sunk from his high estate and resides in Chaos, where, with his forty-nine demons, he tortures wicked souls in boiling rivers of pitch, and with other punishments (pp. 257, 382). He is an archon with the face of a lion, half flame and half darkness.
    Yaldabaoth is frequently called "the Lion-faced", leontoeides, with the body of a serpent. We are told also,[24] that the Demiurge is of a fiery nature, the words of Moses being applied to him, “the Lord our God is a burning and consuming fire,” a text used also by Simon.[25]

    Under the name of Nebro (rebel), Yaldabaoth is called an angel in the apocryphal Gospel of Judas. He is first mentioned in “The Cosmos, Chaos, and the Underworld” as one of the twelve angels to come “into being [to] rule over chaos and the [underworld]”. He comes from heaven, his “face flashed with fire and whose appearance was defiled with blood”. Nebro creates six angels in addition to the angel Saklas to be his assistants. These six in turn create another twelve angels “with each one receiving a portion in the heavens.”

    Not sure how you figure Yaldabaoth was the god of the old testament, remember the archons?

    “The names of glory of those who rule over the seven heavens are these:

    Yaldabaoth, called also Saklas and Samael
    Saturn.~~~~~~ Later illustrated in the Greek Saturnalia.
    Feminine name: Pronoia (Forethought) Sambathas, "week".
    Prophets:[9] Moses, Joshua, Amos, Habakkuk.
    From Hebrew yalda bahut, "Child of Chaos"? The outermost who created the six others, and therefore the chief ruler and Demiurge par excellence. Called "the Lion-faced", leontoeides.

    Iao
    Jupiter.
    Feminine name: Lordship.
    Prophets: Samuel, Nathan, Jonah, Micah.
    Perhaps from Yahu, Yahweh, but possibly also from the magic cry iao in the Mysteries.

    Sabaoth
    Mars.
    Feminine name: Deity.
    Prophets: Elijah, Joel, Zechariah.
    The Old Testament title God of Hosts was thought a proper name, hence Jupiter Sabbas (Yahweh Sabaoth).

    Astaphanos, or Astaphaios
    Venus.
    Feminine name: Sophia (Wisdom).
    Prophets: Esdras, Zephaniah.
    Astraphaios is beyond doubt the planet Venus, as there are gnostic gems with a female figure and the legend ASTAPHE, which name is also used in magic spells as the name of a goddess.

    Adonaios
    The Sun.
    Feminine name: Kingship.
    Prophets: Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel.
    From the Hebrew term for "the Lord", used of God; Adonis of the Syrians representing the Winter sun in the cosmic tragedy of Tammuz. In the Mandaean system Adonaios represents the Sun.

    Elaios, or Ailoaios, or sometimes Ailoein
    Mercury.
    Feminine name: Jealousy.
    Prophets: Tobias, Haggai.
    From Elohim, God (El).

    Horaios
    The Moon.
    Feminine name: Wealth.
    Prophets: Michaiah, Nahum.
    From Jaroah? or "light"? or Horus?


    This is the Seven of the week; these are the ones who govern the world.”


    Men need images..... Lacking them they invent idols.



    beenwize
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    bambu, it's not my opinon.. you can check these sites tho.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_jehovah07.htm


    Bobby Hemmitt breaks it all down at the link below... It's a 13 part series.

    http://www.rbgtube.com/play.php?vid=5057



    .
    bambu
  • bambubambu *Earth & Water* Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bambu wrote: »
    beenwize wrote: »
    Yaldabaoth (whom gnostics identified as god of old testament)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge


    A lion-faced deity found on a Gnostic gem in Bernard de Montfaucon’s L’antiquité expliquée et représentée en figures may be a depiction of the Demiurge.
    In the Ophite and Sethian systems, which have many affinities with that last mentioned, the making of the world is ascribed to a company of seven archons, whose names are given, but their chief, “Yaldabaoth” (also known as "Yaltabaoth" or "Ialdabaoth") comes into still greater prominence.

    In the Apocryphon of John circa 120-180 AD, the Demiurge arrogantly declares that he has made the world by himself:
    Now the archon (ruler) who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas (“fool”), and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, "I am God and there is no other God beside me," for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.[23]

    He is Demiurge and maker of man, but as a ray of light from above enters the body of man and gives him a soul, Yaldabaoth is filled with envy; he tries to limit man's knowledge by forbidding him the fruit of knowledge in paradise. The Demiurge, fearing lest Jesus, whom he had intended as his Messiah, should spread the knowledge of the Supreme God, had him crucified by the Romans. At the consummation of all things all light will return to the Pleroma. But Yaldabaoth, the Demiurge, with the material world, will be cast into the lower depths.

    In Pistis Sophia Yaldabaoth has already sunk from his high estate and resides in Chaos, where, with his forty-nine demons, he tortures wicked souls in boiling rivers of pitch, and with other punishments (pp. 257, 382). He is an archon with the face of a lion, half flame and half darkness.
    Yaldabaoth is frequently called "the Lion-faced", leontoeides, with the body of a serpent. We are told also,[24] that the Demiurge is of a fiery nature, the words of Moses being applied to him, “the Lord our God is a burning and consuming fire,” a text used also by Simon.[25]

    Under the name of Nebro (rebel), Yaldabaoth is called an angel in the apocryphal Gospel of Judas. He is first mentioned in “The Cosmos, Chaos, and the Underworld” as one of the twelve angels to come “into being [to] rule over chaos and the [underworld]”. He comes from heaven, his “face flashed with fire and whose appearance was defiled with blood”. Nebro creates six angels in addition to the angel Saklas to be his assistants. These six in turn create another twelve angels “with each one receiving a portion in the heavens.”

    Not sure how you figure Yaldabaoth was the god of the old testament, remember the archons?

    “The names of glory of those who rule over the seven heavens are these:

    Yaldabaoth, called also Saklas and Samael
    Saturn.~~~~~~ Later illustrated in the Greek Saturnalia.
    Feminine name: Pronoia (Forethought) Sambathas, "week".
    Prophets:[9] Moses, Joshua, Amos, Habakkuk.
    From Hebrew yalda bahut, "Child of Chaos"? The outermost who created the six others, and therefore the chief ruler and Demiurge par excellence. Called "the Lion-faced", leontoeides.

    Iao
    Jupiter.
    Feminine name: Lordship.
    Prophets: Samuel, Nathan, Jonah, Micah.
    Perhaps from Yahu, Yahweh, but possibly also from the magic cry iao in the Mysteries.

    Sabaoth
    Mars.
    Feminine name: Deity.
    Prophets: Elijah, Joel, Zechariah.
    The Old Testament title God of Hosts was thought a proper name, hence Jupiter Sabbas (Yahweh Sabaoth).

    Astaphanos, or Astaphaios
    Venus.
    Feminine name: Sophia (Wisdom).
    Prophets: Esdras, Zephaniah.
    Astraphaios is beyond doubt the planet Venus, as there are gnostic gems with a female figure and the legend ASTAPHE, which name is also used in magic spells as the name of a goddess.

    Adonaios
    The Sun.
    Feminine name: Kingship.
    Prophets: Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel.
    From the Hebrew term for "the Lord", used of God; Adonis of the Syrians representing the Winter sun in the cosmic tragedy of Tammuz. In the Mandaean system Adonaios represents the Sun.

    Elaios, or Ailoaios, or sometimes Ailoein
    Mercury.
    Feminine name: Jealousy.
    Prophets: Tobias, Haggai.
    From Elohim, God (El).

    Horaios
    The Moon.
    Feminine name: Wealth.
    Prophets: Michaiah, Nahum.
    From Jaroah? or "light"? or Horus?


    This is the Seven of the week; these are the ones who govern the world.”

    574505_445078832173253_183001338381005_1843129_1028325330_n.jpg

    Men need images..... Lacking them they invent idols.



    beenwize
  • beenwizebeenwize Posts: 2,024 ✭✭
    beenwize wrote: »
    bambu, it's not my opinon.. you can check these sites tho.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_jehovah07.htm


    Bobby Hemmitt breaks it all down at the link below... It's a 13 part series.

    http://www.rbgtube.com/play.php?vid=5057



    .

    If you looking for a answer to your question, go ahead and click the links above.
    bambu
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