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What Are Your Opinions On the Creation of the State of Israel?

PlutarchPlutarch Posts: 1,403
in The Social Lounge
Do you think that the existence of Israel is justified? This seems to be a, if not the, central issue in much of the conflict in the Middle East today, so I think that it's a pretty important question.

Now for years, I've always thought that the creation of Israel was a severe misuse of authority for several reasons until I actually started reading up on the matter and realized that those reasons might not be completely true. I had thought that Israel was merely created as an apology for Jews and Holocaust survivors, and I had also thought that Israel was created by the outright taking of other Middle Eastern nations.

But the fact seems that Israel was actually created from a British territory that was apparently "legally" acquired from the former Ottoman Empire. So the whole process seems legitimate to me. Not to mention that the British territory that later become Israel was already effectively occupied and settled by a large Jewish population. So why is not acceptable for the British to allow a Jewish territory (Israel) to become independent yet acceptable for the British to allow an Irish territory (Ireland) to become independent?

Territories, regardless of whatever history they had before, always develop and change authorities, ideologies, presidents, cultures, and economies whether it's because of war, rebellion, etc, so if Arab nations are angry because they can no longer continue the history of what they had with the territory that today comprises Israel then that's not a good enough reason to call for the termination of Israel.

I do however still believe that Israel is an investment and a strategic foundation for the West, mainly the United States. And I still believe that much of the West, including the United States and maybe Britain, were and are morally deprived imperialists. Even the Soviet Union opportunistically supported Israel, only because they had problems with Arab nations and could use Israel as an ally and resource. Same thing that the United States are doing today. All of this is wrong, but it still doesn't justify the termination of Israel.

As for argument that the territory that comprises Israel is Muslim holy land? Well, I don't know about that. But the Christians claimed it as Christian holy land before Islam even existed. And the Jews claimed it as Jewish holy land before Christianity existed. And I think that Islam and the Quran genearlly acknowledge both religions (which may explain why some Muslims actually support Zionism) so then how does Israel automatically become Muslim holy land? Regardless, much of the world is secular or likes to think they're secular, so any holy land talk will be ultimately be irrelevant. Unfortunately, the world will always prefer money, power, and greed over religion and God.

With all being said, I do however realize that I can still be ignorant on this subject matter so I welcome all thoughts and opinions so that hopefully we can get to some truths.
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  • jonojono Posts: 5,726
    The problem with Israel's genesis was that the Jews basically forced the British out and then took over. They did their fair share of terrorism before the Brits handed it over. Also the Brits opened the door to the Jews moving there in the first place.

    The Arabs & Jews lived peacefully under the British for the most part, then the Jewish population began to overrun the Arabs and scuffles over land began happening. Once the Jews had successful controlled enough of the country they were able to force the Brits out.

    I don't care what the religious books say because there's no guarantee of truth.

    The Jews have a right to the land as they have fought for and defended it. But they aren't victims, they started the tensions by forcing Arabs to the margins of a land the Arabs believed was rightfully theirs (and they had been there for generations).

    The Jewish leaders like David Ben-Gurion, Theodore Hertzl & Menachem Begin intended on making Palestine a Jewish state since the early 1900s. The Arabs were the majority on the land however, so his plan was to change that...by force if necessary.

    Its a crazy history Ben-Gurion [first prime minister] often flip flopped on whether the Arabs had any rights or not.

    He famously said:
    Ben-Gurion envisioned that Zionism would not be in conflict with Palestinian Arab rights. He stated in 1925:

    "I am unwilling to forego even one percent of Zionism for 'peace'---yet I do not want Zionism to infringe upon even one percent of legitimate [Palestinian] Arab rights"

    He like so many others were more interested in Zionism than peace. He often flip fops on the last part. Before that he said that Arabs had no rights:
    In 1924 he declared:

    "We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders." In 1928 he pronounced that "the [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to close the country to us [Jews]. What right do they have to the Negev desert, which is uninhabited?";
    and in 1930, "The [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to the Jordan river, and no right to prevent the construction of a power plant [by a Jewish concern]. They have a right only to that which they have created and to their homes."

    Of course he flipped again:
    1928, Ben-Gurion stated that there is no contradiction between Zionist and Arab aspirations. He stated that Zionism stands for absolute justice for both parties. He explained that:

    "our sense of morality forbids us to deny the right of a single [Palestinian] Arab child, even though by such denial we might attain all that we seek."

    And ultimately the Jew-Arab-Brit thing wasn't working out and this was said:
    When Ben-Gurion heard of the Passfield White Paper in 1931 (which proposed halting the implementation of the Balfour Declaration), he was furious with "these cowardly traitors" who were responsible for the proposed new policy. He stated:

    "England is a great power, the greatest empire. But to shatter even the largest stones on earth, it takes only a small quantity of explosive powder. Such powder packs tremendous force. If the creative force within us is capable of stopping this EVIL EMPIRE, then the explosive force will ignite, and we will topple this blood-stained imperium. . . . We will be those who take this war upon ourselves and beware thee, British Empire!" (Shabtai Teveth, p. 111) Ben-Gurion called on his colleagues to "prepare for a long and difficult road, if we are left with no alternatives, a road of alliance with the Arabs against these despicable powers." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 112)

    Its a long story. The Arabs physically attacked first but even Ben-Gurion knew the real story:
    Ben-Gurion also clearly stated that it was the Zionists who were the aggressors, at least from the political point of view. He stated in the contexts of the First Palestinian Intifada in 1938, :

    "When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."

    The last line pretty much spells it out. The Israelis have all the political clout and they have won the wars so they write the stories.

    Even today the same thing continues. The Jews are standing in the way of Palestine becoming its own nation. They have pretty much written into history that the Arabs are terrorists who attack them for no good reason, and yet the Israelis demand peace on Israeli terms, they continue to bulldoze and build beyond the set borders.

    Israel is the baby of England & the U.S. England birthed it and the U.S. fed it. Its the greatest military force in the area and if I'm correct their economy is better than our own and yet the U.S. feels the need to continuously babysit them.

    http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html
    kingblaze84
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  • PlutarchPlutarch Posts: 1,403
    ^^^ hm, good drop. At times I have a habit to view the Israelis as victims, but the truth seems to be further than what the israelis and the American media tells us. I never knew the Israelis had their share of agressive participation in the conflict. The compatibility of Zionism and Arab "nationalism" is pretty interesting and complicated indeed.

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  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Posts: 6,261
    Israel, by itself, has a right to exist in my opinion. What I do find troubling about Israel now is how they are constantly stealing land and water from their Palestinian neighbors, and are very blatant about it. The Arab League has stated several times that if Israel goes to its previous 1967 borders, it would work with America to create peace between the Palestinians, Americans, and the United Nations. As we speak though, Israel is destroying Palestinian homes, businesses, and farmland to make way for often very racist Jewish settlers, with COMPLETE American support, from the President Obama on down.

    Israel, all things being fair, is a terrorist nation hellbent on apartheid and oppression. Benjamin Netanyahu is as evil a man that I've ever done research on. And so is the govt he is in charge of.
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  • BlackGeraldBlackGerald Posts: 12,093
    i don't believe ISareal should exist but the reality is that it does. However it needs to stop expanding
    RodrigueZzredhandedbandit
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  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Posts: 6,261
    That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know
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  • PlutarchPlutarch Posts: 1,403
    I'd like to know too. Just curious. Up until now, the consensus is that Israel generally has the right to exist even if there's more to the issue. I'd like to know the reasons for anyone who says otherwise.

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  • queuebertqueuebert Posts: 3
    Plutarch wrote: »
    I'd like to know too. Just curious. Up until now, the consensus is that Israel generally has the right to exist even if there's more to the issue. I'd like to know the reasons for anyone who says otherwise.
    What "consensus" are you referring to? The one we imagine exists simply because the jews' media tells us we agree on this point? The majority of those jews have no claim on that area because their ancestors didn't originate there. They had the United Nations establish Israel as (a) a base of operations to direct their global scams and (b) a place they can retreat to without fear of extradition when they get caught engaged in criminal activity in host countries.

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  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Posts: 6,261
    queuebert wrote: »
    Plutarch wrote: »
    I'd like to know too. Just curious. Up until now, the consensus is that Israel generally has the right to exist even if there's more to the issue. I'd like to know the reasons for anyone who says otherwise.
    What "consensus" are you referring to? The one we imagine exists simply because the jews' media tells us we agree on this point? The majority of those jews have no claim on that area because their ancestors didn't originate there. They had the United Nations establish Israel as (a) a base of operations to direct their global scams and (b) a place they can retreat to without fear of extradition when they get caught engaged in criminal activity in host countries.

    Hmm, I'd like to hear some Ashkenazi Jews respond to this.....
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  • PlutarchPlutarch Posts: 1,403
    queuebert wrote: »
    What "consensus" are you referring to?[/quote]

    I was referring to the consensus in this thread. It seems that so far, up until Black Jerry, everyone has generally agreed that Israel has the right to exist.
    queuebert wrote: »
    The one we imagine exists simply because the jews' media tells us we agree on this point?

    If you are referring to the idea that "the Jews" own and control America's or the world's media then I have to stop you there because I don't believe that. But I guess that's a whole nother argument.
    queuebert wrote: »
    The majority of those jews have no claim on that area because their ancestors didn't originate there.

    1. I don't think that a land should be entitled to whomever's ancestors originated there, and the world has proven this much. War, evolution, trading, migration/immigration all influence whoever owns a particular land. The "first dibs" rule isn't pratical when applied here. If your logic was followed then the Native Americans would own the United States.

    2. Wait, I thought that the Jews, in addition to other ethnicities, have historically occupied that region?

    3. If the Jews' ancestors did not originate in that region, who's ancestors did? How can we even find that out? Perhaps many ethnic groups have ties to the ancestors who originated there? Seems like a legitimate and impossible slippery slope to me.
    queuebert wrote: »
    They had the United Nations establish Israel as (a) a base of operations to direct their global scams and (b) a place they can retreat to without fear of extradition when they get caught engaged in criminal activity in host countries.

    This I can mostly believe and agree. The fact that Israel is the West's puppet and that the American media is biased is obvious and has already been acknowledge in this thread.

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  • moedaysmoedays Posts: 1,499
    I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?
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  • moedaysmoedays Posts: 1,499
    *You
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  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Posts: 6,261
    moedays wrote: »
    I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

    I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got fucked over big time, greed is a mothafucka when it comes to those of European descent.
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  • BlackGeraldBlackGerald Posts: 12,093
    kingblaze84 wrote: »
    That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

    My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves
    J. Will
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  • RodrigueZzRodrigueZz Posts: 5,424
    This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.
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  • janklowjanklow Posts: 4,251
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.
    there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

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  • RodrigueZzRodrigueZz Posts: 5,424
    janklow wrote: »
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.
    there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

    It was to my understanding that America and England (And i guess the rest of the UN) decided that Israel will be formed from Palestinian land
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  • husnain1husnain1 Posts: 87
    janklow wrote: »
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.
    there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

    lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration
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  • janklowjanklow Posts: 4,251
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    It was to my understanding that America and England (And i guess the rest of the UN) decided that Israel will be formed from Palestinian land
    your understanding seems to overlook the fact that Britain conquered and controlled Palestine, the UN didn't exist at the time, and the League of Nations (which might have been involved) did not include the US
    husnain1 wrote: »
    the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians.
    why, it's almost like this has nothing to do with my post!
    husnain1 wrote: »
    you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration
    convince me it means America decided where Israel would be formed
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  • RodrigueZzRodrigueZz Posts: 5,424
    That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.
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  • husnain1husnain1 Posts: 87
    janklow wrote: »
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    It was to my understanding that America and England (And i guess the rest of the UN) decided that Israel will be formed from Palestinian land
    your understanding seems to overlook the fact that Britain conquered and controlled Palestine, the UN didn't exist at the time, and the League of Nations (which might have been involved) did not include the US
    husnain1 wrote: »
    the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. why, it's almost like this has nothing to do with my post!
    husnain1 wrote: »
    you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration
    convince me it means America decided where Israel would be formed

    what are you talking about? this is taken from the state department's own website!

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm

    U.S.-ISRAELI RELATIONS
    Commitment to Israel's security and well being has been a cornerstone of U.S. policy in the Middle East since Israel's founding in 1948, in which the United States played a key supporting role. Israel and the United States are bound closely by historic and cultural ties as well as by mutual interests.

    I pointed to the Balfour Declaration for a historical perspective on the issue not to answer your question of American support in the creation of Israel.
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  • janklowjanklow Posts: 4,251
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.
    and prior to that, Ottoman rule

    janklow: getting America off the hook for random things since ... well, just 2012, i guess
    husnain1 wrote: »
    what are you talking about? this is taken from the state department's own website!
    NOT AN EXTREMELY GENERIC STATEMENT! NOOOO

    okay, okay, what i am talking about: who owned the land to give it away to Jews/Israelis/Zionists/whatever. World War II is just a speed bump on the way to Britain showing back up and saying "we reserve the right to dispose of this territory as we see fit": they took it back in the day from the Ottomans, the League cosigned it, you have an influx of Jews; if anyone should have STOPPED people from creating Israel, it should have been the British. it wasn't a long-standing independent nation AMERICA took over and made into Israel. and did you see us involved in the Suez Crisis?

    plus, i have a theory that the US will make statements about how we've always supported our current allies on our websites.
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  • husnain1husnain1 Posts: 87
    janklow wrote: »
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.
    and prior to that, Ottoman rule

    janklow: getting America off the hook for random things since ... well, just 2012, i guess
    husnain1 wrote: »
    what are you talking about? this is taken from the state department's own website!
    NOT AN EXTREMELY GENERIC STATEMENT! NOOOO

    okay, okay, what i am talking about: who owned the land to give it away to Jews/Israelis/Zionists/whatever. World War II is just a speed bump on the way to Britain showing back up and saying "we reserve the right to dispose of this territory as we see fit": they took it back in the day from the Ottomans, the League cosigned it, you have an influx of Jews; if anyone should have STOPPED people from creating Israel, it should have been the British. it wasn't a long-standing independent nation AMERICA took over and made into Israel. and did you see us involved in the Suez Crisis?

    plus, i have a theory that the US will make statements about how we've always supported our current allies on our websites.

    that is precisely the question that no one is willing to honestly ask! the british seized Palestinian lands during the war and gave it to the israelis which is what the whole balfour declaration is about. the Palestinians view it as the british stealing their land and giving it to the jews. was it theirs to give in the first place??

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  • PlutarchPlutarch Posts: 1,403
    moedays wrote: »
    I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

    I agree that oppressive regimes cannot be justified and the "destruction" of legitimate inhabitants, let alone original inhabitants, of a land also cannot be justified. But when we're talking about the decline of original inhabitants of a given land, we just can't simply generalize all these different types of inhabitants together and blame oppressive regimes. Like I've said, many different factors come into play with each of these situations such as as war, evolution, migration, etc. And some of these factors aren't necessarily implemented by an aggresor. Sometimes, it just comes natural. That's part of life. Things change and a dominant or original peoples sometimes decline for "natural" reasons.

    I've been paying some attention to the Kosovo situation, and if I'm not mistaken, the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of that particular land are Albanian. Yet the Serbians want to control that land because they were largely the original inhabitants. Still, it can be argued that the Serbians are the oppressive regime and that the Albanians, even though they are not the original inhabitants, actually have a right to own that land simply because the population has developed and changed to favor the Albanians. The Serbians have no real control over that, and it seems to me that they only want to keep the land for its resources. And plus, it'd just look bad (i.e. international reputation) if they just loss the land with no gain.

    So if we take a look at the situation in Israel, I couldn't cosign your analogy because I still think that Israel obatined it's "independence" through legal means. Also, I'm still not sure about this whole idea that the Palestinians are the real original inhabitants, let alone the idea that they have a right to that land because they were there first.

    Though I might agree that Israel is an oppressive regime, but then again, what nation in this world isn't oppressive? Let's not make Israel a special case here.

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  • PlutarchPlutarch Posts: 1,403
    kingblaze84 wrote: »
    moedays wrote: »
    I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

    I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got fucked over big time, greed is a mothafucka when it comes to those of European descent.

    I don't know too much about the aboriginals in Australia, but I'm willing to bet that yeah they were fucked over big time too. I think that all peoples, let alone Europeans and their diaspora, are greedy, but I must admit that I've never seen any other peoples go across the whole entire world to oppress other peoples in the way Europeans and their diaspora have.
    Black Jerry Maguire wrote: »
    kingblaze84 wrote: »
    That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

    My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

    But the Jews were also already occupying that land. That's my point. I never knew that fact until only recently which made me do a 180 on my views about the creation of Israel. It mostly seems legit.

    Whether or not Israel establishes an apartheid-like policy is a whole 'nother argument. And if it's true, then that's unacceptable and can't be justified.

    Yeah, the Liberia situation makes me so depressed. Colonialism did so many bad things to Africa, and the effects are present today even if people don't know it.
    Black Jerry Maguire wrote: »
    kingblaze84 wrote: »
    That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

    My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

    kingblaze84
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  • PlutarchPlutarch Posts: 1,403
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.

    See, I thought that too, but it's not true (I explained everything in my original post). So now that I'm more enlightened, I have come to the conlcusion that Israel was legitimately created. But I'm sure that many other people also have misunderstandings about this issue.

    Still though, this revelation doesnt change the fact that Isreal is oppressive, and that Israel is America's investment in the Middle East.
    husnain1 wrote: »
    janklow wrote: »
    RodrigueZz wrote: »
    This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.
    there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

    lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration

    I think that most of what you said is true, and I agree. Whether Israel was created for the Jews because it was the will of British authority alone (I don't think we can blame America here) or because the Jews had a larger population and thus more influence, the fact that the Palestinians seemed to have been left out completely, even though they shared the land with the Jews, is pretty insane. Israel should've been created for all of its inhabitants, Palestinian and Arab alike. That's my only beef with the creation of Israel.
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