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The Official "Convince Me" Thread...DoUWant2Go2Heaven?, get in here.

Punisher__
Punisher__ Members Posts: 3,031 ✭✭
edited May 2010 in R & R (Religion and Race)
Us atheists have formed our views based on there not being sufficient proof to convince us otherwise.

But I'm willing to create a haven that theists can use to provide that proof (if they can) to convince us otherwise.

I'll start off by saying, what would appear to be an inability to provide a "who" or "what" for various processes and "explanations" does not automatically equate to there being a 🤬 , or "goddidit."
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Comments

  • TX_Made713
    TX_Made713 Members Posts: 3,954 ✭✭
    edited May 2010
    my question is why would 🤬 allow such a "divine" book to be altered and tampered with so much yet doom people to hell for not believing it
  • SL8Rok
    SL8Rok Members Posts: 154
    edited May 2010
    Punisher__ wrote: »
    Us atheists have formed our views based on there not being sufficient proof to convince us otherwise.

    But I'm willing to create a haven that theists can use to provide that proof (if they can) to convince us otherwise.

    I'll start off by saying, what would appear to be an inability to provide a "who" or "what" for various processes and "explanations" does not automatically equate to there being a 🤬 , or "goddidit."

    I think Dr. Craig does a good job of explaining this.

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/user/drcraigvideos#p/u/35/Fw8ckWDiZmo[/video]
  • Punisher__
    Punisher__ Members Posts: 3,031 ✭✭
    edited May 2010
    SL8Rok wrote: »
    I think Dr. Craig does a good job of explaining this.

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/user/drcraigvideos#p/u/35/Fw8ckWDiZmo[/video]

    Embed please.

    Thanks.
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited May 2010
    So the first video I watched he says everything in existance has an explanation and there is a universe, and these are proof. LMAO okay. Why can he not explain where the universe came from, why can the explanation not be something else? The existance of pop cans has an explanation, yet have nothing divine about them.
  • TX_Made713
    TX_Made713 Members Posts: 3,954 ✭✭
    edited May 2010
    that vid cant be embedded
  • SL8Rok
    SL8Rok Members Posts: 154
    edited May 2010
    Ok lets try this again
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited May 2010
    So video one he says that man has no purpose if 🤬 doesnt exist. Okay and? We still have a purpose to build as a group and to influence and control our future. Soon man will find a way to eternal life, whats 🤬 going to do then?

    Video two is a bunch of blabbering

    Video 3 says if the bible is degrading to women oh well, just because its harsh dont make it wrong.

    Still no proof? Is that all people can do is rely on a story for proof and other mens reasoning? Oh well the bible gives a purpose and this man says without 🤬 we have none so he must know his 🤬 .

    Fingernails and toenails serve no purpose to anything, so why do we have them?
  • DoUwant2go2Heaven
    DoUwant2go2Heaven When the first trumpet sounds!!!! Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Babylon the GreatMembers Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2010
    Lets start off this discussion by observation. Tonight, whenever you get a chance, I ask that you go outside and stare at the night sky for at least 5 minutes. And while your staring at the starry heavens, ponder this passage of scripture:

    "The heavens declare the glory of 🤬 ; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
    3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard."

    Psalm 19:1-3




    And then chime in tomorrow with your thoughts and experiences.
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited May 2010
    Lets start off this discussion by observation. Tonight, whenever you get a chance, I ask that you go outside and stare at the night sky for at least 5 minutes. And while your staring at the starry heavens, ponder this passage of scripture:

    "The heavens declare the glory of 🤬 ; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
    3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard."

    Psalm 19:1-3




    And then chime in tomorrow with your thoughts and experiences.

    "Behold the glory of night, for light shall be scarce, and 🤬 of warmth will glimmer in the heavens. When silence is absorbed and my handywork is accomplished it shall be so all that can see may observe it" - Chozenisgod 12:14

    Same 🤬 different writer
  • TX_Made713
    TX_Made713 Members Posts: 3,954 ✭✭
    edited May 2010
    Lets start off this discussion by observation. Tonight, whenever you get a chance, I ask that you go outside and stare at the night sky for at least 5 minutes. And while your staring at the starry heavens, ponder this passage of scripture:

    "The heavens declare the glory of 🤬 ; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
    3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard."

    Psalm 19:1-3




    And then chime in tomorrow with your thoughts and experiences.

    you are aware "day" and "night" actually dont exist. they are man made...if the sun burned out right now there would be no day or night...it wouldnt be anything to revolve around...earth time wouldnt exist
  • Punisher__
    Punisher__ Members Posts: 3,031 ✭✭
    edited May 2010
    TX_Made713 wrote: »
    you are away "day" and "night" actually dont exist. they are man made...if the sun burned out right now there would be no day or night...it wouldnt be anything to revolve around...earth time wouldnt exist

    I thought you believed in 🤬 .

    You're confusing me.
  • TX_Made713
    TX_Made713 Members Posts: 3,954 ✭✭
    edited May 2010
    Punisher__ wrote: »
    I thought you believed in 🤬 .

    You're confusing me.

    I do believe in 🤬 ...just not the bible
  • Punisher__
    Punisher__ Members Posts: 3,031 ✭✭
    edited May 2010
    TX_Made713 wrote: »
    I do believe in 🤬 ...just not the bible

    What changed?

    Before the upgrade, you were like the biggest Bible-thumping Christian on this site.
  • BiblicalAtheist
    BiblicalAtheist Prude FieldsMembers Posts: 15,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2010
    What is wrong with having a relative significance to life? Why do humans suppose they are so grand and great they need an ULTIMATE significance? Arrogant.
  • EvanR12
    EvanR12 Members Posts: 60
    edited May 2010
    this is definatly some crazy 🤬 to even talk about lol. And i really basically think rarely about religion. I am not an athiust though.

    Ok, Basically, there are just things that i have been through, that are unexplainable. And the only explanation is "coincidence", which i definatly do not believe is the reason for these things occuring. it is my dreams, there has been multiple times where i have dreams, and that exact dream comes true within one or two weeks of me having the dream. I have litterilly told my friends of like sum "weird" dream that i had right, and then a week later the same exact person in the dream just showed up for like the first time in 15 years. You can say its coincidence, but i do not believe that.

    I am a science major in college trust me im all about the study of matter etc. There is no explanation for psychic activity(and alot of other crazy 🤬 ), which i didnt believe in until i experienced it personally. If you were to ask me if i believe in 🤬 though, i would basically say "i have no idea if he exists", and then i would feal guilt for not having complete faith for if he duz exist.

    Even when studying matter......... its just too perfect. Honestly, the more i understand molecules and chemistry, the more questions i have. I didnt watch those vids yet though ill watch them tomorrow prob.
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited May 2010
    EvanR12 wrote: »
    this is definatly some crazy 🤬 to even talk about lol. And i really basically think rarely about religion. I am not an athiust though.

    Ok, Basically, there are just things that i have been through, that are unexplainable. And the only explanation is "coincidence", which i definatly do not believe is the reason for these things occuring. it is my dreams, there has been multiple times where i have dreams, and that exact dream comes true within one or two weeks of me having the dream. I have litterilly told my friends of like sum "weird" dream that i had right, and then a week later the same exact person in the dream just showed up for like the first time in 15 years. You can say its coincidence, but i do not believe that.

    I am a science major in college trust me im all about the study of matter etc. There is no explanation for psychic activity(and alot of other crazy 🤬 ), which i didnt believe in until i experienced it personally. If you were to ask me if i believe in 🤬 though, i would basically say "i have no idea if he exists", and then i would feal guilt for not having complete faith for if he duz exist.

    Even when studying matter......... its just too perfect. Honestly, the more i understand molecules and chemistry, the more questions i have. I didnt watch those vids yet though ill watch them tomorrow prob.

    But is Deja Vu positive proof of 🤬 ? Our minds are the most powerful thing in existance, we have barely scratched the surface with brain research and people can do extraordinary things with just the slighest usage of it. We have never been able to explain the full capabilities of our mind, for all we know we can have the ability to know the truth to everything it is just supressed and we are unable to dig it out.
  • Ioniz3dSPIRITZ
    Ioniz3dSPIRITZ Members Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2010
    So video one he says that man has no purpose if 🤬 doesnt exist. Okay and? We still have a purpose to build as a group and to influence and control our future. Soon man will find a way to eternal life, whats 🤬 going to do then?

    But what does it matter if you won't be around to enjoy humanitys discovery of eternal life? You'l probably be dead by then.
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited May 2010
    So video one he says that man has no purpose if 🤬 doesnt exist. Okay and? We still have a purpose to build as a group and to influence and control our future. Soon man will find a way to eternal life, whats 🤬 going to do then?

    But what does it matter if you won't be around to enjoy humanitys discovery of eternal life? You'l probably be dead by then.

    My children, my grandchildren, their children. I might be gone, but they won't. Man still has purpose wether or not 🤬 exists. Im not all for me so maybe I see things different but Id rather provide a better future for someone wether its me, my family, or someone I dont even know. If I dont get to enjoy it oh well, I will die happier believing I may have changed someone elses life for the better.
  • Ioniz3dSPIRITZ
    Ioniz3dSPIRITZ Members Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2010
    My children, my grandchildren, their children. I might be gone, but they won't. Man still has purpose wether or not 🤬 exists. Im not all for me so maybe I see things different but Id rather provide a better future for someone wether its me, my family, or someone I dont even know. If I dont get to enjoy it oh well, I will die happier believing I may have changed someone elses life for the better.

    you sir are a good man.
  • EvanR12
    EvanR12 Members Posts: 60
    edited May 2010
    But is Deja Vu positive proof of 🤬 ? Our minds are the most powerful thing in existance, we have barely scratched the surface with brain research and people can do extraordinary things with just the slighest usage of it. We have never been able to explain the full capabilities of our mind, for all we know we can have the ability to know the truth to everything it is just supressed and we are unable to dig it out.

    No(to first question). If anything it would prove miracles can occur, which athiusts must not believe in because "you cant put miracles in a lab and study them". It is just evidence that things that science would claim to be "impossible", are possible. Good point about the power of our minds, but no matter what potential our minds have, they would need the potential to see the future, in order to scientifally explain psychic experiences, and so to know information about what will happen in a day,month, year etc. it has to come from some all knowing source. just makes you wonder.
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited May 2010
    EvanR12 wrote: »
    No(to first question). If anything it would prove miracles can occur, which athiusts must not believe in because "you cant put miracles in a lab and study them". It is just evidence that things that science would claim to be "impossible", are possible. Good point about the power of our minds, but no matter what potential our minds have, they would need the potential to see the future, in order to scientifally explain psychic experiences, and so to know information about what will happen in a day,month, year etc. it has to come from some all knowing source. just makes you wonder.

    What is a mirical though? Just because something has a very small chance of happening does not prove that its divine. There are tons of useless things with the same probabilities as what Christians refer to as miricals or proof that 🤬 created it all. Do you realize when the bible was written alot of the things they considered miricals are everyday occurences to us now with a factual explanation? In the future what we claim as miricals now will have the same thing.
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2010
    What is a mirical though? Just because something has a very small chance of happening does not prove that its divine. There are tons of useless things with the same probabilities as what Christians refer to as miricals or proof that 🤬 created it all. Do you realize when the bible was written alot of the things they considered miricals are everyday occurences to us now with a factual explanation? In the future what we claim as miricals now will have the same thing.

    That's because we have understanding, we have science, we have history. If we didn't have these things, they WOULD be miracles.

    There are things though still today considered miracles. This word is thrown around a lot, used way to loosely.

    On 9/11 a man by the name of Stanley Praimnath, who was on the level of where the plane hit, said he turned around and looked out the window and seen a plane coming at him (1st plane that hit, flight 11) and he said he yelled out, "🤬 , I don't know what to do, help me". He hid under his desk and the plane hit. HIT in his office, yes! He said he came out and the wing was there in his office on fire.

    He made it out, not only that, as soon as he came out of the building it started collapsing.

    He pretty much evaded death twice. This isn't "Final Destination" this is a miracle. 🤬 for His reasons, helped this man through this. Why? This man pretty much said, "it's in your hands", he put his faith into 🤬 .

    But of course that cannot still prove to anyone here, because once someone tries to say or prove something it's detoured by another question or explanation.
  • ThaChozenWun
    ThaChozenWun Members Posts: 9,390
    edited May 2010
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    That's because we have understanding, we have science, we have history. If we didn't have these things, they WOULD be miracles.

    And that is part of the reason I dont believe the bible, because they attributed any and everything they couldnt explain at that time to a 🤬 . And what they claim as miricals werent, why should I believe anything else they say being that alot of it has a scientific, logical, and easily proven theory as to how it happened without any divine intervention.
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    There are things though still today considered miracles. This word is thrown around a lot, used way to loosely.

    On 9/11 a man by the name of Stanley Praimnath, who was on the level of where the plane hit, said he turned around and looked out the window and seen a plane coming at him (1st plane that hit, flight 11) and he said he yelled out, "🤬 , I don't know what to do, help me". He hid under his desk and the plane hit. HIT in his office, yes! He said he came out and the wing was there in his office on fire.

    He made it out, not only that, as soon as he came out of the building it started collapsing.

    He pretty much evaded death twice. This isn't "Final Destination" this is a miracle. 🤬 for His reasons, helped this man through this. Why? This man pretty much said, "it's in your hands", he put his faith into 🤬 .

    But of course that cannot still prove to anyone here, because once someone tries to say or prove something it's detoured by another question or explanation.

    That does not provide a divine proof though, athiest are put into situations and can avoid death, they do not place anything in gods hands. If someone is a christian of course they say "well it must be 🤬 " I want to know why it has to be 🤬 when it happens more than we think. Usually you throw out a probability and there are miilions of other things with the same probability not tending to a 🤬 . Could these be 🤬 and not just a probability of course, no one knows what is out there, do I believe its any religious books 🤬 , hell no.
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2010
    And that is part of the reason I dont believe the bible, because they attributed any and everything they couldnt explain at that time to a 🤬 . And what they claim as miricals werent, why should I believe anything else they say being that alot of it has a scientific, logical, and easily proven theory as to how it happened without any divine intervention.



    That does not provide a divine proof though, athiest are put into situations and can avoid death, they do not place anything in gods hands. If someone is a christian of course they say "well it must be 🤬 " I want to know why it has to be 🤬 when it happens more than we think. Usually you throw out a probability and there are miilions of other things with the same probability not tending to a 🤬 . Could these be 🤬 and not just a probability of course, no one knows what is out there, do I believe its any religious books 🤬 , hell no.

    1st comment - They figured out ALL miracles in the bible? I think not. Only the plagues and parting of the sea. What else have they "debunked"?? It isn't even really debunking, you gotta think, they seen these as miracles so no matter the explanation, back then it WAS a miracle. Today yes it can be explained but not all the bible.

    2nd - I never stated he was Christian or even religious and neither did he, he just stated he put it in 🤬 's hands. To me that is a miracle, considering how the day turned out to be. 2 planes, both building collapse. This man survived the initial impact of the plane, made it out of the fire, debris and everything and made it out just in time before the building collapse. Oh, not to mention, he couldn't find his way out, and one man by the name of Brian Clark just happened to say, "we should check rooms", people were like hell no! He stayed and checked into a place where Stanley was, helped him out of the debris piled room and out of the building. If it wasn't for Brian Clark, Stanley would've died BUT it is divine intervention. Argue all you want, it is what it is. Read the story dude, I've not only read it in, "102 Minutes", I've watched it on tv and read it online. All of that good stuff.

    🤬 saved this mans life for a reason, that being, his FAITH in 🤬 . At the last second asking 🤬 to take over.
  • EvanR12
    EvanR12 Members Posts: 60
    edited May 2010
    What is a mirical though? Just because something has a very small chance of happening does not prove that its divine. There are tons of useless things with the same probabilities as what Christians refer to as miricals or proof that 🤬 created it all. Do you realize when the bible was written alot of the things they considered miricals are everyday occurences to us now with a factual explanation? In the future what we claim as miricals now will have the same thing.

    The miracle is knowing things are going to happen before they happen. If on multiple occasions, you have dreams of like for example, a kid(who you havnt seen in 15 years) walks up to you and asks you "hey do you enjoy hockey?" in the dream. The next day, you see him for the first time in 15 years and he asks that exact question. and stuff like this happens often. You technically could claim that its a coincidence. But ya right, i do not believe thats just a coincedence if it is happening at that scale i believe you are recieving information from an all knowing source.

    You are basically assuming that their is a scientific explanation for people who can tell the future. The same way religious people assume their is a 🤬 . So are you for or against assumptions with no proof? Im not trying to argue for any certain religion, but with my life experiences i just believe more and more that there is some sort of other "side". Beyond the physical world. One of the first laws of chemistry almost proves that there has to be another side we do not understand. "energy(or matter i forget) can not be created or destroyed"........................ So you can either assume that 🤬 made it, or you can assume there is some scientific explanation. You are both assuming.

    And religion isnt always about just needing to feel like you have purpose, Buddhism for example, is more of a way to live life in a peacefull state of enlightenment in which you can escape temptations, and just the sadness of reality. Loved ones dying, aging, disease, jealousy, etc. And if you follow that religion you really will escape those things. I dont see athiusts offering a superior method to living a fullfilling life. They often come across as arrogent kinda like they think they are so smart(not you just some)The Buddists i meet come across as content, humble, and good intended. Respond to the first two points though, i just added this in for an extra kick