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As a christian, is there a such thing as putting too much emphasis on christ?

1246

Comments

  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    judahxulu wrote: »
    1) Agreed. Judaism did not exist at that time

    2) Ummmm...the New Testament perhaps?

    Paul and Jesus: where’s the conflict?
  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    Mat 8:2 - NOT BEING WORSHIPPED IN THIS VERSE, ONLY BEING SHOWED RESPECT
    9:18 - SAME THING, THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPPIN JESUS, THEY RECOGNIZE HIM FOR WHO HE IS BUT THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPPIN HIM, ONLY ASKIN FOR A DEED OR FAVOR
    14:33 - YES, THEY DID FALL TO THEIR KNEES AND WORSHIP JESUS SAYING HE IS THE SON OF 🤬 ...
    15:25 - SAME AS THE 1ST TWO



    ::scratches head::


    All the selected verses explicitly say Jesus was ‘worshipped’.
  • judahxulu
    judahxulu Members Posts: 3,988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    Paul and Jesus: where’s the conflict?

    No time to type now. Watch and we will discuss later.
  • DRO
    DRO Members Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    ::scratches head::


    all the selected verses explicitly say jesus was ‘worshipped’.

    no they dont, they ony say kneeled down and the people asked something from jesus.... What version are you reading?

    14:33 is the only one that says they worshipped
  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    no they dont, they ony say kneeled down and the people asked something from jesus.... What version are you reading?

    14:33 is the only one that says they worshipped



    bowdown.gif

    ^^^


    Is this not worship? Kneeling down is a form of worship. For example: When Catholics kneel down and kiss the Pope’s ring, that’s… worship.
  • The Lonious Monk
    The Lonious Monk Man with No Fucks Given Members Posts: 26,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    bowdown.gif

    ^^^


    Is this not worship? Kneeling down is a form of worship. For example: When Catholics kneel down and kiss the Pope’s ring, that’s… worship.

    No it's not, it's a sign of respect not worship. Kneeling and bowing before a person are signs of respect pretty much across the globe.
  • DRO
    DRO Members Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    no it's not, it's a sign of respect not worship. Kneeling and bowing before a person are signs of respect pretty much across the globe.

    dam, u beat me to it!

    You kneel down to tie your shoe...

    You bow down when praying...
  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    No it's not, it's a sign of respect not worship. Kneeling and bowing before a person are signs of respect pretty much across the globe.

    ‘Worship’ is a sign of respect. ::shrugs shoulders::

    They are synonymous. The term ‘worship’ has a wide range of concepts and meaning.

    Concept Thesaurus
    Concept: Worship.
    Category: 4. Acts of religion
    Synonyms:
    -nouns
    worship, adoration, devotion, aspiration, homage, service, humiliation; kneeling, genuflection, prostration., prayer, invocation, supplication, rogation, intercession, orison, holy breathing ; petition (request); collect, litany, Lord's prayer, paternoster; beadroll; latria, dulia, hyperdulia, vigils; revival; cult; anxious meeting, camp meeting; ebenezer, virginal., thanksgiving; giving thanks, returning thanks; grace, praise, glorification, benediction, doxology, hosanna; hallelujah, allelujah; Te Deum, non nobis Domine, nunc dimittis; paean; benschen; Ave Maria, O Salutaris, Sanctus, The Annunciation, Tersanctus, Trisagion., psalm, psalmody; hymn, plain song, chant, chaunt, response, anthem, motet; antiphon, antiphony., oblation, sacrifice, incense, libation; burnt offering, heave offering, votive offering; offertory., discipline; self-discipline, self-examination, self-denial; fasting., divine service, office, duty; exercises; morning prayer; mass, matins, evensong, vespers; undernsong, tierce; holyday (rites)., worshipper, congregation, communicant, celebrant.
    -verbs
    worship, lift up the heart, aspire; revere; adore, do service, pay homage; humble oneself, kneel; bow the knee, bend the knee; fall down, fall on one's knees; prostrate oneself, bow down and worship., pray, invoke, supplicate; put up, offer up prayers, offer petitions; beseech (ask); say one's prayers, tell one's beads., return thanks, give thanks; say grace, bless, praise, laud, glorify, magnify, sing praises; give benediction, lead the choir, intone; deacon, deacon off [U.S.], propitiate, offer sacrifice, fast, deny oneself; vow, offer vows, give alms,, work out one's salvation; go to church; attend service, attend mass; communicate (rite).
    -adjectives
    worshipping; devout, devotional, reverent, pure, solemn; fervid (heartfelt).
    -phrases
    "making their lives a prayer" [Whitter]; ora et labora; "prayers ardent open heaven" [Young].
  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    dam, u beat me to it!

    You kneel down to tie your shoe...

    You bow down when praying...

    This doesn't make sense.
  • weezyfgarbage
    weezyfgarbage Members Posts: 1,673
    edited July 2010
    ‘Worship’ is a sign of respect. ::shrugs shoulders::

    They are synonymous. The term ‘worship’ has a wide range of concepts and meaning.

    Concept Thesaurus
    Concept: Worship.
    Category: 4. Acts of religion
    Synonyms:
    -nouns
    worship, adoration, devotion, aspiration, homage, service, humiliation; kneeling, genuflection, prostration., prayer, invocation, supplication, rogation, intercession, orison, holy breathing ; petition (request); collect, litany, Lord's prayer, paternoster; beadroll; latria, dulia, hyperdulia, vigils; revival; cult; anxious meeting, camp meeting; ebenezer, virginal., thanksgiving; giving thanks, returning thanks; grace, praise, glorification, benediction, doxology, hosanna; hallelujah, allelujah; Te Deum, non nobis Domine, nunc dimittis; paean; benschen; Ave Maria, O Salutaris, Sanctus, The Annunciation, Tersanctus, Trisagion., psalm, psalmody; hymn, plain song, chant, chaunt, response, anthem, motet; antiphon, antiphony., oblation, sacrifice, incense, libation; burnt offering, heave offering, votive offering; offertory., discipline; self-discipline, self-examination, self-denial; fasting., divine service, office, duty; exercises; morning prayer; mass, matins, evensong, vespers; undernsong, tierce; holyday (rites)., worshipper, congregation, communicant, celebrant.
    -verbs
    worship, lift up the heart, aspire; revere; adore, do service, pay homage; humble oneself, kneel; bow the knee, bend the knee; fall down, fall on one's knees; prostrate oneself, bow down and worship., pray, invoke, supplicate; put up, offer up prayers, offer petitions; beseech (ask); say one's prayers, tell one's beads., return thanks, give thanks; say grace, bless, praise, laud, glorify, magnify, sing praises; give benediction, lead the choir, intone; deacon, deacon off [U.S.], propitiate, offer sacrifice, fast, deny oneself; vow, offer vows, give alms,, work out one's salvation; go to church; attend service, attend mass; communicate (rite).
    -adjectives
    worshipping; devout, devotional, reverent, pure, solemn; fervid (heartfelt).
    -phrases
    "making their lives a prayer" [Whitter]; ora et labora; "prayers ardent open heaven" [Young].

    worship is excessive respect. Like a stan...almost.
  • The Lonious Monk
    The Lonious Monk Man with No Fucks Given Members Posts: 26,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    ‘Worship’ is a sign of respect. ::shrugs shoulders::

    They are synonymous. The term ‘worship’ has a wide range of concepts and meaning.

    Concept Thesaurus
    Concept: Worship.
    Category: 4. Acts of religion
    Synonyms:
    -nouns
    worship, adoration, devotion, aspiration, homage, service, humiliation; kneeling, genuflection, prostration., prayer, invocation, supplication, rogation, intercession, orison, holy breathing ; petition (request); collect, litany, Lord's prayer, paternoster; beadroll; latria, dulia, hyperdulia, vigils; revival; cult; anxious meeting, camp meeting; ebenezer, virginal., thanksgiving; giving thanks, returning thanks; grace, praise, glorification, benediction, doxology, hosanna; hallelujah, allelujah; Te Deum, non nobis Domine, nunc dimittis; paean; benschen; Ave Maria, O Salutaris, Sanctus, The Annunciation, Tersanctus, Trisagion., psalm, psalmody; hymn, plain song, chant, chaunt, response, anthem, motet; antiphon, antiphony., oblation, sacrifice, incense, libation; burnt offering, heave offering, votive offering; offertory., discipline; self-discipline, self-examination, self-denial; fasting., divine service, office, duty; exercises; morning prayer; mass, matins, evensong, vespers; undernsong, tierce; holyday (rites)., worshipper, congregation, communicant, celebrant.
    -verbs
    worship, lift up the heart, aspire; revere; adore, do service, pay homage; humble oneself, kneel; bow the knee, bend the knee; fall down, fall on one's knees; prostrate oneself, bow down and worship., pray, invoke, supplicate; put up, offer up prayers, offer petitions; beseech (ask); say one's prayers, tell one's beads., return thanks, give thanks; say grace, bless, praise, laud, glorify, magnify, sing praises; give benediction, lead the choir, intone; deacon, deacon off [U.S.], propitiate, offer sacrifice, fast, deny oneself; vow, offer vows, give alms,, work out one's salvation; go to church; attend service, attend mass; communicate (rite).
    -adjectives
    worshipping; devout, devotional, reverent, pure, solemn; fervid (heartfelt).
    -phrases
    "making their lives a prayer" [Whitter]; ora et labora; "prayers ardent open heaven" [Young].

    You're being silly. There is a difference between simply showing respect and worshipping. Again, across the globe, people bow or perform some other motion towards elders and people of a high position. They are not worshipping those people.

    Also, I'm not even sure what your post is supposed to mean. You went to the Thesaurus and are giving a bunch of things associated with worship. No one said that people don't kneel or bow when they worship. The argument is that every time a person bows or kneels, it doesn't mean they are worshipping. This should clear to anyone who has knowledge of Western culture. If you've ever seen a movie or tv show, what's the first thing they do when someone is made king or emperor? They kneel and bow their heads. They aren't worshipping. They are just showing respect for the title.
  • Conscious212
    Conscious212 Members Posts: 813 ✭✭
    edited July 2010
    Meaning...


    In church, speaking to ones self, praying, etc.. Christians call out on jesus for everything, more so than they do 🤬 ...

    🤬 is to be worshipped and not jesus, right or wrong?

    Yes jesus is the savior but 🤬 is the creator and i know that you cant get to 🤬 w/o going through
    jesus.



    So with that being said, is it a sin or bad to; how can i say this... Replace christ with 🤬 ?

    Very intriguing question T/S. Although I am not a Christian anymore, heres a little food for thought. In Matthew 26:36-46; Jesus falls on his knees and prays in the garden of Gesthemane. He asks his "father" to let the cup pass from him. And later when on the cross he says eli eli lama sabachthani "my lord, my lord, why has though forsaken me" Math. 27:46. So here he asks "his" 🤬 why has he been forsaken, he questions his "🤬 ". How can you worship a "man" who claimed to be one with his father, yet denied his father and knelt down in the garden, who was Jesus praying to in the garden? Ofcourse you would say 🤬 . So therefore Jesus cannot be '🤬 " if he was praying to his "🤬 ". It's confusing but its religion.
  • jay83
    jay83 Members Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    Well, Jesus implied but he never just came out and said it.

    Its kinda like people who say it is what it is.

    Person- "Jesus are you 🤬 ?"

    Jesus - "I am what I am."


    Person- "Jesus are you the creator of the universe?"

    Jesus - "It is what it is."

    There are examples of Jesus being 🤬 like, and there are examples of Jesus saying I am nothing without the father.

    Which is why this debate will never end. Because each side can use scriptures to for their point.

    I just cant see Jesus being happy with people worshiping him as 🤬 . Because if he was 🤬 , how the hell can we be like him?
    I think what made Jesus the man he was is because he was just a man sent by 🤬 , instead of 🤬 himself.

    But to each is own.
  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    You're being silly. There is a difference between simply showing respect and worshipping. Again, across the globe, people bow or perform some other motion towards elders and people of a high position. They are not worshipping those people.

    Also, I'm not even sure what your post is supposed to mean. You went to the Thesaurus and are giving a bunch of things associated with worship. No one said that people don't kneel or bow when they worship. The argument is that every time a person bows or kneels, it doesn't mean they are worshipping. This should clear to anyone who has knowledge of Western culture. If you've ever seen a movie or tv show, what's the first thing they do when someone is made king or emperor? They kneel and bow their heads. They aren't worshipping. They are just showing respect for the title.

    This is a pretty equivocal discussion.

    Seeing as, the English word ‘worship’ is ambiguous and is broadly defined and misleading.

    What do you all MEAN by ‘worship’?

    Also as some of you might know, the NT was not written in English but Greek. The Greek word translated ‘worship’ is proskuneō. And proskuneō has a wide range of meaning and has been variously translated over the years as “to fawn or crouch to”, “to fall upon the knees”, “prostrated himself before”, “bow down”, “worship”, or “worshipped”. In the context used, all these terms and phrases are equal. So ‘Jesus’ was ‘worshipped’/ "bowed down to" in (Mat 8:2; 9:18; 14:33 and 15:25).

    That is my argument.
  • The Lonious Monk
    The Lonious Monk Man with No Fucks Given Members Posts: 26,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    We are using the term 'worship' to mean a definitive exaltation of someone upt to a "🤬 " status. Simply saying that people bowed down or kneeled before Jesus does not mean they were elevating him to a level of godhood. Those people did not pray to Jesus. They prayed to 🤬 under Jesus direction.

    Seriously, let's forget all the stuff that came from Paul for a moment. Hell, let's forget all the stuff that came from anyone other than Jesus because as Christians, the message that Christ delivered should be the first and foremost authority. Go back and read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Be honest, after reading those books, do you honestly believe that Jesus intended for anyone to worship him. If you're completely objective, you'll have to say no to that question. Jesus may have implied that he was part of the Father. He may have said that to love the father you have to love him. However, he never told anyone to worship or pray to him. He rebuked people for directing too much praise towards him. He always made 🤬 first and foremost.

    I'm not saying the idea of a divine trinity is wrong. I'm just saying that not all parts of that trinity are equal. 🤬 is highest without a doubt. Jesus stated this and all his actions support that belief. Once again, Jesus deserves praise and honor. As Christians everyone should accept that Jesus is their savior and provided the means for being connected to 🤬 . However, he should not be put on the same level as 🤬 and he shouldn't be worshipped interchangeably with 🤬 . There is really no arguing this based on what we see in Jesus' life. Any argument against this will have to come from personal speculation or Biblical text written by or for someone else. How can any good Christian put the words of another man or prophet over those of the Messiah?
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    jay83 wrote: »
    Well, Jesus implied but he never just came out and said it.

    Its kinda like people who say it is what it is.

    Person- "Jesus are you 🤬 ?"

    Jesus - "I am what I am."


    Person- "Jesus are you the creator of the universe?"

    Jesus - "It is what it is."

    There are examples of Jesus being 🤬 like, and there are examples of Jesus saying I am nothing without the father.

    Which is why this debate will never end. Because each side can use scriptures to for their point.

    I just cant see Jesus being happy with people worshiping him as 🤬 . Because if he was 🤬 , how the hell can we be like him?
    I think what made Jesus the man he was is because he was just a man sent by 🤬 , instead of 🤬 himself.

    But to each is own.


    Genesis 1:26 - "Then 🤬 said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.... "

    Then who is, "US" that 🤬 speaks about?
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    jay83 wrote: »
    I just cant see Jesus being happy with people worshiping him as 🤬 . Because if he was 🤬 , how the hell can we be like him?
    I think what made Jesus the man he was is because he was just a man sent by 🤬 , instead of 🤬 himself.

    For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    Ecclesiastes 7:20

    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Matthew 5:48

    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

    Matthew 19:21


    We know that there isn't a just man on this earth, a person that doesn't walk this earth that doesn't sin at all. Sin is inevitable, it's expected. But we're told we can be perfect, just as 🤬 is. Then Jesus explains to us how. That there is perfection. Now we don't have a literal man of Jesus right now to follow on foot, behind him walking etc. But we can give up our "riches/prized possessions", then we can remove our distractions and solely focus on 🤬 . That is the road to perfection. Without tv, music, games, computers, phones, cameras etc we are less likely to sin. I'm almost certain you can get down to a point to where you are near perfection but will still fall short of that due to sin. There is no just man on this earth that doesn't sin but walking like Jesus did in 🤬 's light/word is putting yourself closer.
  • supaman4321
    supaman4321 Members Posts: 946
    edited July 2010
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    Genesis 1:26 - "Then 🤬 said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.... "

    Then who is, "US" that 🤬 speaks about?

    Plural of respect

    Allah says "we" and "us" in the Qur'an but no Muslim will ever say that 🤬 is anything more than One 🤬 with no partners or associates

    http://www.wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch14.html

    This article goes more in depth into the plural of respect and the website in general deals with the divinity of 'Isa

    Salaam
  • supaman4321
    supaman4321 Members Posts: 946
    edited July 2010
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    Ecclesiastes 7:20

    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Matthew 5:48

    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

    Matthew 19:21


    We know that there isn't a just man on this earth, a person that doesn't walk this earth that doesn't sin at all. Sin is inevitable, it's expected. But we're told we can be perfect, just as 🤬 is. Then Jesus explains to us how. That there is perfection. Now we don't have a literal man of Jesus right now to follow on foot, behind him walking etc. But we can give up our "riches/prized possessions", then we can remove our distractions and solely focus on 🤬 . That is the road to perfection. Without tv, music, games, computers, phones, cameras etc we are less likely to sin. I'm almost certain you can get down to a point to where you are near perfection but will still fall short of that due to sin. There is no just man on this earth that doesn't sin but walking like Jesus did in 🤬 's light/word is putting yourself closer.

    Hold up, so you're saying that Jesus told us we can be like 🤬 ? The same man who wouldn't allow himself to be called good because only 🤬 is good? I'm gonna need some proof because that doesn't add up
  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    We are using the term 'worship' to mean a definitive exaltation of someone upt to a "🤬 " status. Simply saying that people bowed down or kneeled before Jesus does not mean they were elevating him to a level of godhood. Those people did not pray to Jesus. They prayed to 🤬 under Jesus direction.

    Seriously, let's forget all the stuff that came from Paul for a moment. Hell, let's forget all the stuff that came from anyone other than Jesus because as Christians, the message that Christ delivered should be the first and foremost authority. Go back and read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Be honest, after reading those books, do you honestly believe that Jesus intended for anyone to worship him. If you're completely objective, you'll have to say no to that question. Jesus may have implied that he was part of the Father. He may have said that to love the father you have to love him. However, he never told anyone to worship or pray to him. He rebuked people for directing too much praise towards him. He always made 🤬 first and foremost.

    I'm not saying the idea of a divine trinity is wrong. I'm just saying that not all parts of that trinity are equal. 🤬 is highest without a doubt. Jesus stated this and all his actions support that belief. Once again, Jesus deserves praise and honor. As Christians everyone should accept that Jesus is their savior and provided the means for being connected to 🤬 . However, he should not be put on the same level as 🤬 and he shouldn't be worshipped interchangeably with 🤬 . There is really no arguing this based on what we see in Jesus' life. Any argument against this will have to come from personal speculation or Biblical text written by or for someone else. How can any good Christian put the words of another man or prophet over those of the Messiah?

    I never said that it did. All I said was Jesus was ‘worshipped’ -- that was it.
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    Hold up, so you're saying that Jesus told us we can be like 🤬 ? The same man who wouldn't allow himself to be called good because only 🤬 is good? I'm gonna need some proof because that doesn't add up

    That was a rhetorical question about who is good. You misunderstand what he says bro.

    We could be but the nature of sin prevents it. If it's done right you can be on the brink of it. Thoughts will always prevent it, i.e. sexual 🤬 , pride etc..
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    Plural of respect

    Allah says "we" and "us" in the Qur'an but no Muslim will ever say that 🤬 is anything more than One 🤬 with no partners or associates

    http://www.wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch14.html

    This article goes more in depth into the plural of respect and the website in general deals with the divinity of 'Isa

    Salaam

    It still is ONE 🤬 . Jesus says so himself, there is ONE 🤬 . 🤬 has a trinity though, which is who the "US" is in the beginning.

    Philippians 2: 5 - 11 ---

    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature[a] 🤬 ,
    did not consider equality with 🤬 something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore 🤬 exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of 🤬 the Father.

    If Jesus is not 🤬 , then this description would not apply to him. We woudln't call Jesus Lord nor would he be exalted to the highest place whose name is above every name. Sounds like 🤬 to me
  • kids in america_
    kids in america_ Members Posts: 213
    edited July 2010
    VIBE86 wrote: »
    Genesis 1:26 - "[COLOR="Red"]Then 🤬 said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness....[/COLOR] "

    Then who is, "US" that 🤬 speaks about?

    It is my belief that “us” was ‘🤬 ’ the Father and “Jesus” preexisting as “The Word of 🤬 ”. It seems like a family relationship (the Father and the son).
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    It is my belief that “us” was ‘🤬 ’ the Father and “Jesus” preexisting as “The Word of 🤬 ”. It seems like a family relationship (the Father and the son).

    Read these verses carefully. [the emphases are mine]


    Luk 10:22 All things have been handed over to ME [Jesus] by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

    1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one 🤬 , the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    1Co 15:27 for "🤬 (the Father) has put all things in subjection under his [Jesus] feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection," it is plain that this does not include the one [the Father] who put all things in subjection under him [Jesus].

    1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him [Jesus], then the Son [Jesus] himself will also be subjected to the one [the Father] who put all things in subjection under him [Jesus], so that 🤬 [the Father] may be all in all.

    Col 1:15 He [Jesus] is the image (not ‘🤬 ’ the Father, but the image) of the invisible 🤬 [the Father], the firstborn [Jesus] of all creation;

    Col 1:16 for in him [Jesus] all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers--all things have been created through him [Jesus] and for him [Jesus].

    Col 1:17 He [Jesus] himself is before all things, and in him [Jesus] all things hold together.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word [Jesus] was with 🤬 [the Father], and the Word [Jesus] was 🤬 (Being a '🤬 ' is quite different from being THE Father).

    Joh 1:2 He [Jesus] was in the beginning with 🤬 [the Father].

    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through him [Jesus], and without him [Jesus] not one thing came into being. What has come into being

    Rev 19:13 He [Jesus] is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his [Jesus] name is called The Word of 🤬 .

    Jesus = 🤬 the Son.
  • judahxulu
    judahxulu Members Posts: 3,988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2010
    The "us" is Elohim. Has nothing to do with Jesus. Ya'll are so off. No matter how much study you do, if you are more dedicated to your unfounded beliefs and preconceived notions than truth, you will invariably see what you want to see. There has never been a Hebrew messiah named jesus. There is but one Creator. Many gods who worship Him and Him alone.
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