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Reason Debates VI: _Menace_ vs pralims (pralims wins)

5th Letter
5th Letter Black Identified Extremist Members, Moderators, Writer Posts: 37,068 Regulator
edited June 2013 in The Reason
This is the Reason Debates VI the purpose of these debates is for healthy debates and plus it's something fun to do. There will be a 500 word limit, nothing over that amount. Each debate will be 24 hours after that point the debates will be over. Each participant will get 3 try's. After the debates are over posters are allowed to vote. The rules on voting is simple, you are to vote on who made the better argument and not the side you agree with.

Debate topic-"Does having a ghost writer have effect on an emcee's legacy in hip-hop"

_Menace_ Yes
pralims- No
«13

Comments

  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2013
    "Does having a ghost writer have effect on an emcee's legacy in hip-hop"

    Yes... There are many reasons why having a ghost writer effects a Rappers legacy.

    We know Hip Hop or music in general expresses how you feel and what ever "you" write comes from the heart. But to find out someone wrote your rhymes shows you dont care that much about the culture and also shows how lazy you are and how you ran out of ideas or aint as creative as people think.

    I know my opponent might use Dr.Dre as example so let me explain why it wont effect DR DRE. (THE PRODUCER) But DR.DRE The Rapper BECAUSE He's known as a producer before recognized as a rapper.

    Dr.Dre arguably the best producer of all time and someone who has worked with legendary artists and produced many classic songs,albums, including 2 of his own Albums (Chronic and Chronic 01). The Chronic is Dre's best album where wrote most of the lyrics while D.O.C co-wrote as well. But when you think of Dr Dre do you think of an Emcee or a Producer? Dr.Dre is a producer before he's a emcee...Yeah he had some ghost writers but he also played a huge role in The Chronic he produced,mixed and introduced us to Snoop Dogg,Daz,Kurup and The Late Great NATE DOGG.


    Now Snoop Dogg on the other hand had some ghost writers in his past (POST 🤬 )
    I felt like that hurt his credibility as an emceee because 🤬 is a classic album but Snoops lyrics weren't known as one his strengths but having a ghost writer showed me Snoop was out of ideas and lost his touch. Snoop Lion is something he's trying out not because he wants to change mostly because hes trying to be more creative.


    When I was young I used to think rappers wrote their own lyrics till I heard Eazy-E say "ICE CUBE WRITES THE RHYMES THAT I SAY" Let me say Eazy is one of my favorite but since then he fell out my top 10 mostly based on he wasnt writing all his music. To me Boyz N Da Hood was my 🤬 but to find out Cube also wrote that kinda took some of the credibilty away from Eazy-E in my opinion.

    Some people might say "Who cares if they have ghostwriters" to me it plays a huge role in Hip-Hop because as a Emcee in Hip-Hop being the realest and most creative makes you the greatest. That is why I consider Pac the goat. He might not have top notch lyrics but his rhymes came from the heart and they where 100% real and you can hear the pain in his music. NaS had some help on UNTITLED but that was late in his career but I already considered him one of the best because Nas can spit its not like Jay E wrote his whole album.


    Let me end this like this. As I said before having a ghostwriter shows me you have no passion,aren't creative,lazy,or just cant straight up write a good song. Now P.Diddy isn't known as an Emcee but when your friends with one of the best rappers Biggie Smalls who ends up tragically passing away you wanna give him a good tribute right? I bet know one knew "I'll be missing you" wasn't even written by Diddy in fact Sauce Money wrote that whole song Diddy just made money off of it. To me that discredits the P.Diddy a lot because not only I'll Be MIssing You was his biggest song of his career because it was supposed be a tribute for Biggie hes closes friend but you let someone else write a tribute for your homeboy? And one of the biggest well known songs in Hip Hop "Rappers Delight" was actually written by Grandmaster Caz.


    That is why I think having a ghostwrite discredits your legacy.
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    lol damn I blacked the 🤬 out.

    Never wrote that much ever in my existence on the IC.

    This subject really had me going in.
  • 2stepz_ahead
    2stepz_ahead Who I am is Complex, What i am, simply put. I'm a Threat walking out the lions denGuests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 32,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    i gotta keep it brief right now...

    so no it will not affect anyones legacy in hiphop. simply because the fans wont allow it to if the music is good and consistent. in early hiphop it was maybe...but now its just no.

    my opponent used Dr dre, and diddy as examples of people he thought i was gonna use....but i wont because diddy always says i dont write rhymes i write checks. no one held him accountable and his statement an he won a grammy for no way out(which is a good album). so ghostwriting helped his legacy....oh an let me throw a few other names out there....

    Jermaine dupri
    trick daddy
    NWA
    and Kanye.

    all respected rappers in their own right, maybe not dupri but he still had a following.

    As long as it produced a hit for the check writer, the video is good with half dressed ladies in it, most people dont care.
    most 🤬 respond to finding out about ghostwriting like...

    gif2.jpg

    then two weeks later....

    Dont-Even-Care-Asian-Dance.gif
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Diddys legacy is mostly based on his longevity and who he worked with not music he preformed.
    So are you gonna sit there and tell me. When Eazy-E says this line in Boyz N Da Hood "Crusin Down The Street In MY 64..." its a classic line but he didnt write it so that takes effect on his legacy.

    Having a Ghostwriter can be bad or good but if you're known as one of the greatest emcees but later I find out you been using a ghost writer it does take a hit on your legacy.
    IT shows you really didnt mean those bars
    IT shows you lack creativity
    IT shows your not willing to put the pen to the paper and write whats really on your mind.

    Instead you're letting someone write for you and try to walk in your shoes trying to picture what you might say.
    Lets say AZ ghostwrote all of Nas's illmatic (which is arguably the best hip hop album of all time) your going to tell me you'll still consider Nas one of the Elite Emcees? Or what if Big L and Memphis Bleek wrote all of Reasonable Doubt that wouldnt effect Jay's legacy as an EMCEE?

    In Hip-Hop if you write your own lyrics and your lyrics are dope you get respect from your peers and others around you as a true lyricists. If you have someone writing your rhymes and that song becomes a hit you dont say "I made a classic" Naw YOUR GHOSTWRITER made that song a classic you just had the flow and delivery to make it feel like a hit.
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @parlims

    lets try finishing this today.
  • 2stepz_ahead
    2stepz_ahead Who I am is Complex, What i am, simply put. I'm a Threat walking out the lions denGuests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 32,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    _Menace_ wrote: »
    @parlims

    lets try finishing this today.

    no problem

  • 2stepz_ahead
    2stepz_ahead Who I am is Complex, What i am, simply put. I'm a Threat walking out the lions denGuests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 32,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now while you state that eazy said rolling down the street in his 64......no one remembers he didnt write it. they like the way it sounds. i doubt people say he didnt actually ride down the street in his 64, that was cube.

    now while i understand what your trying to say about lyrics...most of the lyrics are written talking about someone elses life anyway.

    now let me go back to one of your points. I would not call getting a ghostwriter lazy and not creative. You have to add a certain stank on the lyrics to make them come alive. add a certain energy or personality. so you can take wack lyrics and add waka flaka energy an the 🤬 would be alright. but if you take those same lyrics an be laid back they would appear to be corny.

    but back to the point.....lets use lil wayne for example....alot of people look at him as a good lyricist. but he had help and ghostwriters most of his career...then he ghostwrote for nikki. no one is bringing them up when speaking of ghostwriting an legacies. people to busy looking at her ass and 🤬 and they too busy repeating waynes "nigerian hair" line.

    but money talks an can keep certain 🤬 hidden and names dont have to be added to credits....so we dont really know who ghostwrote for who...at this point no one cares no more....because lyrics are so watered down people only listen to the beats now.

    this topic only mattered in the golden age of hiphop...not the current where its the norm.

  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    That's good you brought up Wayne.
    Let's take a look at an album Wayne had ghostwriters on

    Ghostwriter for C1 (Gillie Da Kid)
    No Ghostwriter for C3

    Even though c3 had more commercial success C1 is Waynes best album and album he had ghostwriters for.
    Now I'm not gonna break down these albums Lyrically cause that would be too easy. But it shows you how wayne had some good lyrics on C1 like

    "Now you know I play it, like a pro in the game
    Naw better yet a veteran a hall of fame
    I got that medicine, I'm better than all the names
    Ay its Cash Money Records man a lawless gang
    Put some water on the track, Fresh for all his flame
    Wear a helmet when you bang it man and guard yo brain
    Cuz the flow is spasmatic what they call insane"



    Then this on c3

    "Don't you hate a shy 🤬 ?
    Yeah I ate a shy 🤬
    She ain't shy no more, she changed her name to my 🤬
    hahahaha, yeah, 🤬 that's my 🤬
    So when she ask for the money, when you through don't be surprised 🤬
    It ain't trickin' if you got it
    But you like a 🤬 with no ass, you ain't go 🤬 "



    As an Emcee Wayne is GARBAGE. He had a ghostwriter and was on point. W
    ithout his ghostwrite he was horrible lyrically. He never learned how to really write good music since he was used to letting others do it for him.


    Lets leave wayne alone and talk about someone else

    Whitney Houston....one of the greatest singers of all time didnt write any of her music but we consider her of the greatest why? Because of her voice.


    But in Hip Hop its way different than other genres if an emcee put out a classic iconic song and you later found her he didnt write you're still going to look at him the same? I personally think it would effect him

    1.he had someone else write the song for him.
    2.he didnt spend countless hours in the studio writing.plotting and thinking what's gonna be written.
    3.He obviously didnt dedicate himself to write the song and lacks passion for the music.



    My last statement before I finish my final round.

    Hip Hop is the music where you express yourself were lyrics from from the heart weather its poetic or street.
    As a true emcee you will be accountable for anything you say in your rhymes if you happened to make a hit record with some iconic lines then someone finds out you hand no part in making that hit. That you were just the voice as someone wrote that hit for you it takes a hit to your legacy. If you call yourself a true emcee then spit what comes from the heart and what's on your mind dont rhyme words that someone else wrote for you that's basically living another lifestyle.


    To be considered one of the bests you must put in work and that comes with being creative,desired to win,the love of the culture and passion to write great music. It's not the same if someone else is putting that work on paper and letting you rhyme. You might have The Voice but you also have a BRAIN which isnt hard to use it might take you time to think of a topic to write about but that's where inspiration and motivation come in. You always have to be before getting in the studio always have your mindset on music and what topic you're going to write about. Because when you're responsible for making a hit song you wrote you will feel much better that no one wrote it for you and that it took creativity and hard work to do. As an Emcee its a good feeling to have but when someone else does it seems like you had no MAJOR part in it but was just the voice behind it.
    Imagine if someone wrote Martin Luther King's "I HAD A DREAM" speech it would have some what effect on his legacy but not that much because he still played a huge rule in the civil right movement.

    Even If I make 1 hit record in my whole career I'd still be proud because I wrote it and it came from the heart.
    I wanna be the one who gets the credit for good lyrics not anyone else. As an EMCEE its your job to write the music no one else that's why you call yourself an Artist unless you rather be called an Entertainer.
  • 2stepz_ahead
    2stepz_ahead Who I am is Complex, What i am, simply put. I'm a Threat walking out the lions denGuests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 32,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    actually an emcees job is to maintain crowd control and host and entertain.

    only in hiphop does emcee mean lyric writer. but it's so much more than that.

    Presence
    energy
    delivery
    personality

    but lets get back to wayne for a sec....

    so if gille wrote his rhymes and gillie put out a record...gillie record should do just as good as waynes in theory right? but it doesnt because wayne has incredible energy to care those lyrics and bring the crowd into it. while the ghostwriter cant get people to move let alone pay attention.

    yet people praise wayne. wayne could give two fukk about if hes proud he made a hit record...hes gettin awards, notoriety and money off of his investment in a ghostwriter. even on this site, people highly anticipate wayne next album. now wayne moved up his ghostwriting abilities by hiring drake. the two sound damn near alike, but is it a strike against wayne yet? nope.

    again, it doesnt matter now about who wrote it...its how you say it.
    even still once a emcee has a cult type following....they can sit next to the ghostwriter and record them saying he wrote my 🤬 and people will still be like....but thats my 🤬 .

    so i will end my debate stance by saying that ghostwriting will not hurt your legacy. if it did then alot of our classic albums and favorite groups and favorite artists would be homeless. ghostwriters can write two verses and the emcee can come up with the hook and still get credit for a good song.

    look at the documentary....50 wrote all the hits on the album and the hooks...yet game gets credit as a good emcee because of his voice, delivery, personality and presence. the 🤬 will name drop until dawn....an people will still come to see him an buy his records. People say he helped bring the west back, but it can be said that 50 brought the west back because he wrote the hits that made game. But guess who gets the credit?

    Games legacy is not harmed.
    wayne legacy is not harmed.

    they are multi-platinum, the hits are consistent(well waynes is anyway), they can still tour and command top dollar for verses. even if they didnt write what attracted people to them.

    This will end my stance.

    good day
  • 2stepz_ahead
    2stepz_ahead Who I am is Complex, What i am, simply put. I'm a Threat walking out the lions denGuests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 32,324 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice debate @_menace

    best of luck to you.

    you are a worthy opponent with good rebuttals and facts.

    now while i respect your debating skills...i hope you don't advance so i can.
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    pralims wrote: »
    Nice debate @_menace

    best of luck to you.

    you are a worthy opponent with good rebuttals and facts.

    now while i respect your debating skills...i hope you don't advance so i can.

    LMAO...

    Respects to you for letting me use my topic and going all out.

    May the best man win...


    @Jamaica

    Time to vote
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • 5th Letter
    5th Letter Black Identified Extremist Members, Moderators, Writer Posts: 37,068 Regulator
    Debate is over
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GOAT DEBATE SO FAR
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
  • TimeToParty
    TimeToParty Members Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭✭
    pralim was a much better argument and i agree with him fully.
  • WiseGuyy
    WiseGuyy Members Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alot of the Examples used were false as 🤬 , loll but Overall a good debate. Gotta read over it again later to decide
  • buttuh_b
    buttuh_b Members Posts: 13,544 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yall used way too much speculation that aren't facts.
  • DarthRozay
    DarthRozay Members Posts: 20,570 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll give it to Menace.
  • 32DaysOfInfiniti
    32DaysOfInfiniti Members Posts: 4,152 ✭✭✭✭✭
    pralims got him, too much opinion in Menace argument
  • _Menace_
    _Menace_ R.I.P KOBE Bay Area Members, Writer Posts: 26,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let me end this like this. As I said before having a ghostwriter shows me you have no passion,aren't creative,lazy,or just cant straight up write a good song. Now P.Diddy isn't known as an Emcee but when your friends with one of the best rappers Biggie Smalls who ends up tragically passing away you wanna give him a good tribute right? I bet know one knew "I'll be missing you" wasn't even written by Diddy in fact Sauce Money wrote that whole song Diddy just made money off of it. To me that discredits the P.Diddy a lot because not only I'll Be MIssing You was his biggest song of his career because it was supposed be a tribute for Biggie hes closes friend but you let someone else write a tribute for your homeboy? And one of the biggest well known songs in Hip Hop "Rappers Delight" was actually written by Grandmaster Caz.

    THESE ARE FACTS
  • bambu
    bambu *Earth & Water* Members Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @pralims, Earns favor from the Gods............

  • TimeToParty
    TimeToParty Members Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭✭
    _Menace_ wrote: »
    Let me end this like this. As I said before having a ghostwriter shows me you have no passion,aren't creative,lazy,or just cant straight up write a good song. Now P.Diddy isn't known as an Emcee but when your friends with one of the best rappers Biggie Smalls who ends up tragically passing away you wanna give him a good tribute right? I bet know one knew "I'll be missing you" wasn't even written by Diddy in fact Sauce Money wrote that whole song Diddy just made money off of it. To me that discredits the P.Diddy a lot because not only I'll Be MIssing You was his biggest song of his career because it was supposed be a tribute for Biggie hes closes friend but you let someone else write a tribute for your homeboy? And one of the biggest well known songs in Hip Hop "Rappers Delight" was actually written by Grandmaster Caz.

    THESE ARE FACTS

    cmon son dont get butt hurt over a L and start typing in all caps
  • RanchWheatThin
    RanchWheatThin Members Posts: 98
    My vote goes to pralims. Both sides made good points, but it was as if menace was arguing if ghost writing SHOULD effect an emcee's legacy, instead of if it DOES effect their legacy. Since the debate subject was if ghost writing effects their legacy, the stronger argument, in my opinion was made by pralims.
This discussion has been closed.