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Federal civil rights charges unlikely against police officer in Ferguson shooting

janklowjanklow god's lonely man.Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
Federal civil rights charges unlikely against police officer in Ferguson shooting

Justice Department investigators have all but concluded they do not have a strong enough case to bring civil rights charges against Darren Wilson, the white police officer who shot and killed an unarmed black teenager in Ferguson, Mo., law enforcement officials said.

When racial tension boiled over in Ferguson after the Aug. 9 shooting, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. traveled to the St. Louis suburb to meet with city leaders and protest organizers in an effort to bring calm. He assured them that the federal government would open a civil rights investigation into the fatal shooting of Michael Brown. But that investigation now seems unlikely to result in any charges.

“The evidence at this point does not support civil rights charges against Officer Wilson,” said one person briefed on the investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

Justice Department officials are loath to acknowledge publicly that their case cannot now meet the high legal threshold for a successful civil rights prosecution. The timing is sensitive: Tensions are high in greater St. Louis as people await the results of a grand jury’s review of the case.

Many supporters of Brown say they are already convinced there will be no state-level indictment of the officer. Federal officials have wanted to show that they are conducting a full and fair review of the case.
Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson and Missouri State Highway Patrol Capt. Ronald Johnson held news conferences Friday to discuss the release of robbery surveillance video, reveal the identity of the officer who shot Michael Brown and more. (Nicki DeMarco/The Washington Post)

Justice spokesman Brian Fallon said the case remains open and any discussion of its results is premature. “This is an irresponsible report by The Washington Post that is based on idle speculation,” Fallon said in a statement.

Other law enforcement officials interviewed by The Post said it was not too soon to say how the investigation would end. “The evidence we have makes federal civil rights charges unlikely,” one said.

A lawyer for Brown’s family, Benjamin L. Crump, said he would not comment “on something that is not official.”

James P. Towey Jr., Wilson’s attorney, did not return calls or e-mails seeking comment.

The Justice Department is continuing its broad investigation of the policing practices of the Ferguson Police Department, which could result in wholesale reforms and reorganization. The Justice Department on Friday announced an agreement with the city of Albuquerque intended to overhaul the way its police department uses force, the result of one such civil rights investigation.

At a forum this week organized by the Aspen Institute and the Atlantic magazine, Holder indicated that a similar overhaul could be called for in Ferguson. “It’s pretty clear that the need for wholesale change in that department is appropriate,” Holder said.

Federal law sets a high bar in bringing civil rights charges against a police officer because prosecutors must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer intended to violate someone’s constitutional rights.

Authorities faced a similar challenge in the investigation of George Zimmerman in the 2012 shooting death of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla. Under federal law for hate crimes, prosecutors have to show that someone has been victimized intentionally because of a racial or other bias.

Law enforcement officials have said privately that there is insufficient evidence to bring federal charges in that case, although the two-year probe technically remains open.

The investigation of the Brown shooting is being conducted by the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division under a federal statute that makes it a crime for a person with government authority — the legal term is “acting under color of any law” — to “willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States.”

Sometimes the department is successful. In 2010, prosecutors won convictions of two New Orleans police officers for civil rights violations in connection with the killing of a man and the burning of his body during the disruption that followed Hurricane Katrina. The officers have appealed their convictions.

Holder and other officials have decried recent news reports about investigative findings in the Ferguson case that have revealed new but conflicting details about the three-minute encounter between Wilson and Brown. Some of those details potentially corroborate the officer’s account that the killing was an act of self-defense, and they could complicate a civil rights case against Wilson.

The St. Louis County autopsy report, published Oct. 21 by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, was interpreted by some forensic pathologists as indicating that Brown may have struggled for control of Wilson’s gun during their initial altercation, but they also said the evidence was inconclusive.

After two shots were fired inside Wilson’s patrol vehicle, the officer got out and Brown fled but later turned around as Wilson continued firing. Some pathologists said the report indicates — but not conclusively — that Brown’s hands were not over his head. Several witnesses said his arms were raised in surrender when the officer shot him again.

Rachel A. Harmon, a law professor at the University of Virginia and a former prosecutor in the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division, said it is especially challenging to prove a civil rights case beyond a reasonable doubt.

“There is an extra burden in federal civil rights cases because the statute requires that the defendant acted ‘willfully,’ ” Harmon said. “It is not enough to prove that he used too much force. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did so willfully.”

Harmon also said that if Wilson “genuinely believed he was acting in self-defense,” then his actions are not considered “willful,” meaning he did not intend to deprive Brown of his constitutional rights.

Brown was shot a total of nine times, including three times in the head, according to the county autopsy.

Dorian Johnson, the 22-year-old who was with Brown when the two encountered Wilson, has said the officer was the aggressor and did not act in self-defense.

David Klinger, a former Los Angeles police officer and now a professor of criminology at the University of Missouri at St. Louis, said enduring disputes over what happened are likely to raise reasonable doubt that would make a successful civil rights prosecution almost impossible.

“The autopsy report is devastating because it raises doubts about him standing still with his hands in the air in surrender,” said Klinger, who fatally shot a suspect in the line of duty when he was an officer. “If you have a halfway competent lawyer, the defense could raise reasonable doubt with this.”

Samuel Bagenstos, a former Justice Department principal deputy assistant attorney general for civil rights and now a law professor at the University of Michigan, said the obstacles prosecutors face in the Ferguson case are typical, as are the frustrations of Brown’s supporters.

It is common to have a situation “that looks like a constitutional violation and may well be an injustice,” Bagenstos said. “But sometimes the Justice Department does not have the ability to bring a civil rights case under the statutes it enforces.”
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Comments

  • A Talented OneA Talented One stew Members Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    I'll let this slide if the Ferguson police dept bring up charges
  • blackamericablackamerica Members Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This 🤬 iz emotionally draining. I wish Malcolm was still here so we could form black militants to rebel against the police
  • janklowjanklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    I'll let this slide if the Ferguson police dept bring up charges
    it IS entirely possible charges are not warranted

    this is part of the problem with relating every problem with the police to specific situations like this: if, hypothetically, Wilson shouldn't be charged, it allows people to declare, "see, all those guys in Ferguson were rioting over nothing." which isn't true, but you probably also shouldn't charge a guy just to send a message to other people. currently a 🤬 -up situation.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    janklow wrote: »
    I'll let this slide if the Ferguson police dept bring up charges
    it IS entirely possible charges are not warranted

    this is part of the problem with relating every problem with the police to specific situations like this: if, hypothetically, Wilson shouldn't be charged, it allows people to declare, "see, all those guys in Ferguson were rioting over nothing." which isn't true, but you probably also shouldn't charge a guy just to send a message to other people. currently a 🤬 -up situation.

    No 🤬 way. If eight witnesses said I 🤬 a woman and killed her, I would be sent to 🤬 jail. Don't give me this 🤬 . If you're willing to ignore 8 witnesses, you would be a horrible police officer, and the Ferguson police dept have a horrible police dept themselves so I'm not surprised you are willing to say it's possible charges aren't warranted. There's even video of two White guys who said there was no threat posed by Brown at all, and he was running away unarmed.

    And if there are other witnesses who said Darren Wilson was justified in shooting Brown, then that should play out in court. I would never ignore 8 witnesses just for some forensic science that doesn't tell the whole story.
  • blackamericablackamerica Members Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No 🤬 way. If eight witnesses said I 🤬 a woman and killed her, I would be sent to 🤬 jail. Don't give me this 🤬 . If you're willing to ignore 8 witnesses, you would be a horrible police officer, and the Ferguson police dept have a horrible police dept themselves so I'm not surprised you are willing to say it's possible charges aren't warranted. There's even video of two White guys who said there was no threat posed by Brown at all, and he was running away unarmed.

    And if there are other witnesses who said Darren Wilson was justified in shooting Brown, then that should play out in court. I would never ignore 8 witnesses just for some forensic science that doesn't tell the whole story.
    Your right. 1 witness is enough in most cases. Eight witnesses should be a slam dunk. But keep in mind the BLATANT cover ups Wilson & the Furgeson police department used from the time the murder occurred. Black ppl need to be as ENRAGED as ever, to the point where policemen's love ones need to start disappearing in Furgeson for justice.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    No 🤬 way. If eight witnesses said I 🤬 a woman and killed her, I would be sent to 🤬 jail. Don't give me this 🤬 . If you're willing to ignore 8 witnesses, you would be a horrible police officer, and the Ferguson police dept have a horrible police dept themselves so I'm not surprised you are willing to say it's possible charges aren't warranted. There's even video of two White guys who said there was no threat posed by Brown at all, and he was running away unarmed.

    And if there are other witnesses who said Darren Wilson was justified in shooting Brown, then that should play out in court. I would never ignore 8 witnesses just for some forensic science that doesn't tell the whole story.
    Your right. 1 witness is enough in most cases. Eight witnesses should be a slam dunk. But keep in mind the BLATANT cover ups Wilson & the Furgeson police department used from the time the murder occurred. Black ppl need to be as ENRAGED as ever, to the point where policemen's love ones need to start disappearing in Furgeson for justice.

    Reminds me of what that Black guy in LA did....I got the anger behind that, right or wrong. I do get tight thinking about the injustices that are happening in this case now and what could happen Nov 10th. If the rumors are right that Darren Wilson will be acquitted from this by then or mid November (just before Thanksgiving smh), I would completely understand the anger behind anything done afterwards. And I'll leave it at that, it sucks an injustice can be so blatant in this day and age.
  • janklowjanklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    No 🤬 way. If eight witnesses said I 🤬 a woman and killed her, I would be sent to 🤬 jail. Don't give me this 🤬 .
    so i take it you did not actually want to look up the number of witnesses that support the officer's story? let's go right back to the Washington Post:

    "Because Wilson is white and Brown was black, the case has ignited intense debate over how police interact with African American men. But more than a half-dozen unnamed black witnesses have provided testimony to a St. Louis County grand jury that largely supports Wilson’s account of events of Aug. 9, according to several people familiar with the investigation who spoke with The Washington Post."

    so that's 6 witnesses supporting the officer and 8 disputing the officer. kind of sounds like a wash, unless we have a reason to cite one or another as specifically more reliable ... and none of these articles seem to be doing them. remember, if you think it's outrageous that i don't take 8 witnesses as 100% accurate, YOU'RE DOING ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THING.

    also, let's go further: i did not say, "ignore 8 witnesses, who cares." i said, and i quote, "it IS entirely possible charges are not warranted." because it actually is. we're supposed to be looking at forensic evidence AND eyewitness evidence together to figure out what actually happened.

    this comes right back to what i said earlier: just because there are standing issues with the police in Ferguson or anywhere else, it doesn't mean that every case should be handled as a reaction to that. it should be on the actual merits.

    jesus christ ,why i am the only person on the internet ever arguing for a 🤬 legitimate justice system even if that means SOMETIMES we don't get the immediate revenge fantasy we want?
  • blackamericablackamerica Members Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    so that's 6 witnesses supporting the officer and 8 disputing the officer. kind of sounds like a wash, unless we have a reason to cite one or another as specifically more reliable ... and none of these articles seem to be doing them. remember, if you think it's outrageous that i don't take 8 witnesses as 100% accurate, YOU'RE DOING ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THING.
    The same sources reporting these alleged 6 unidentified witnesses, are the same sources that said this recent autopsy confirmed Darren Wilson's innocence (which is far from the truth).
    Regardless, Mike Brown was MURDERED by the police. Him reaching for the gun has NOTHING to do with whether Darren Wilson should be indicted. The cop should be indicted and the evidence supports that. You did the same 🤬 with Zimmerman, so your coonery isn't surprising

    janklow wrote: »
    also, let's go further: i did not say, "ignore 8 witnesses, who cares." i said, and i quote, "it IS entirely possible charges are not warranted." because it actually is. we're supposed to be looking at forensic evidence AND eyewitness evidence together to figure out what actually happened.

    this comes right back to what i said earlier: just because there are standing issues with the police in Ferguson or anywhere else, it doesn't mean that every case should be handled as a reaction to that. it should be on the actual merits.

    jesus christ ,why i am the only person on the internet ever arguing for a 🤬 legitimate justice system even if that means SOMETIMES we don't get the immediate revenge fantasy we want?
    Merit? Gtfoh. The EVIDENCE says the cop shot at the boy 11 times, about half of those from behind. That's not police protocol. There is no argument. Wilson was shooting to 🤬 . Regardless of what happened in the vehicle, he shot the kid while he was running away. You need to apply as a FOX News the way you ignore facts. Sean Hannity would be proud of you
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    janklow wrote: »
    No 🤬 way. If eight witnesses said I 🤬 a woman and killed her, I would be sent to 🤬 jail. Don't give me this 🤬 .
    so i take it you did not actually want to look up the number of witnesses that support the officer's story? let's go right back to the Washington Post:

    "Because Wilson is white and Brown was black, the case has ignited intense debate over how police interact with African American men. But more than a half-dozen unnamed black witnesses have provided testimony to a St. Louis County grand jury that largely supports Wilson’s account of events of Aug. 9, according to several people familiar with the investigation who spoke with The Washington Post."

    so that's 6 witnesses supporting the officer and 8 disputing the officer. kind of sounds like a wash, unless we have a reason to cite one or another as specifically more reliable ... and none of these articles seem to be doing them. remember, if you think it's outrageous that i don't take 8 witnesses as 100% accurate, YOU'RE DOING ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THING.

    also, let's go further: i did not say, "ignore 8 witnesses, who cares." i said, and i quote, "it IS entirely possible charges are not warranted." because it actually is. we're supposed to be looking at forensic evidence AND eyewitness evidence together to figure out what actually happened.

    this comes right back to what i said earlier: just because there are standing issues with the police in Ferguson or anywhere else, it doesn't mean that every case should be handled as a reaction to that. it should be on the actual merits.

    jesus christ ,why i am the only person on the internet ever arguing for a 🤬 legitimate justice system even if that means SOMETIMES we don't get the immediate revenge fantasy we want?

    8 witnesses say Darren Wilson shot Mike Brown with him not being a threat compared to 6 witnesses who possibly support Darren Wilson's story, that still warrants an arrest, are you kidding me? If Darren Wilson gets off in a trial I'd be unhappy but could live with it. Without any charges, it makes it seem 8 witnesses aren't important, the community is outraged for a reason. If 8 witnesses said I 🤬 and killed a woman AND 6 witnesses say I DIDN'T, the logical thing would be for me to be arrested and let a jury or judge decide what really happened. To just let the officer off completely is a complete travesty and sham of justice. It would DEFINITELY show a lack of respect for the 8 witnesses who saw something bad, more then the 6 who say Wilson possibly was justified. An arrest at a minimum is warranted, 8 witnesses should NEVER EVER be ignored.
  • The IconoclastThe Iconoclast harbinger of existential angst Members Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This 🤬 iz emotionally draining. I wish Malcolm was still here so we could form black militants to rebel against the police

    Even if he was alive, nothing wouldn't happen. In this day & age most self-proclaimed black militants aren't anarchist or even critical of capitalism - the system that fostered and is the lifeblood of our justice system.

    Anarchists like Malcolm, Angela Davis and Huey were true anti-government, black militants. This is why I always laugh when I see posters on the IC, confound simply being pro-black with actual militancy. However there are some true black militants still out there though, if you look hard enough you'll find them on various social media sites.
  • janklowjanklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    You need to apply as a FOX News the way you ignore facts. Sean Hannity would be proud of you
    so you can actually debate a topic, or do you just default to this kind of nonsense because you know you can't?
    8 witnesses say Darren Wilson shot Mike Brown with him not being a threat compared to 6 witnesses who possibly support Darren Wilson's story, that still warrants an arrest, are you kidding me?
    i think the sole point that i have made re: witnesses is that in the end, a) you're still doing what you're supposedly complaining about and b) witnesses only should not be what determines the charges.
    If Darren Wilson gets off in a trial I'd be unhappy but could live with it. Without any charges, it makes it seem 8 witnesses aren't important, the community is outraged for a reason.
    it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified.

    but it's not outside the realm of possibility that people legitimately decided charges weren't warranted.

  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    janklow wrote: »
    You need to apply as a FOX News the way you ignore facts. Sean Hannity would be proud of you
    so you can actually debate a topic, or do you just default to this kind of nonsense because you know you can't?
    8 witnesses say Darren Wilson shot Mike Brown with him not being a threat compared to 6 witnesses who possibly support Darren Wilson's story, that still warrants an arrest, are you kidding me?
    i think the sole point that i have made re: witnesses is that in the end, a) you're still doing what you're supposedly complaining about and b) witnesses only should not be what determines the charges.
    If Darren Wilson gets off in a trial I'd be unhappy but could live with it. Without any charges, it makes it seem 8 witnesses aren't important, the community is outraged for a reason.
    it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified.

    but it's not outside the realm of possibility that people legitimately decided charges weren't warranted.

    OH COME ON MAN, you're really letting me down with these posts. Let me rephrase it this way, if 8 witnesses said someone stole a car and 6 witnesses say he did not, wouldn't it make sense to bring up charges if MORE people say he did something wrong? And remember there is video footage of two WHITE construction workers who say Mike Brown was not a threat when he was shot and 8 different witnesses told police Brown was not a threat when he was being shot. And plus Darren Wilson didn't even bother to write a police report and according to Ferguson law that's illegal. This is a cover up, more witnesses then not say the cop shot Brown when he was away from Wilson, unarmed, and surrendering, and Darren Wilson never finished his police report. That's a sign he's hiding something

    A community with 8 witnesses is saying something is wrong, and for them to be completely ignored is sickening and disgusting beyond belief. I can't understand how 8 witnesses can just be thrown away like this, for any reason.
  • blackamericablackamerica Members Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    You need to apply as a FOX News the way you ignore facts. Sean Hannity would be proud of you
    so you can actually debate a topic, or do you just default to this kind of nonsense because you know you can't?
    🤬 stop. I addressed your comments. Bottom line, when a obvious conclusion has been drawn to a situation, you're the one guy at the last second screaming "Um, i don't agree and your all wrong". I guess it makes you feel smarter always being the objective guy. There is no real debate with you


    janklow wrote: »
    but it's not outside the realm of possibility that people legitimately decided charges weren't warranted.
    The physical evidence alone is enough to charge Wilson. Witness testimony, combined with shots from behind, combined with the amount of shots fired, AND the failure of Wilson to follow police protocol after the murder (the obvious cover up). NOTHING suggest he was acting in self defense
  • janklowjanklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    OH COME ON MAN, you're really letting me down with these posts. Let me rephrase it this way, if 8 witnesses said someone stole a car and 6 witnesses say he did not, wouldn't it make sense to bring up charges if MORE people say he did something wrong?
    no. it would depend on a) what the witnesses said, b) who these witnesses are (because i think we known literally nothing about their vantage points, etc), and c) what the rest of the evidence said.

    let's say your 8 witnesses are consistent, clear, and supported by forensic evidence? FILE CHARGES. but what's going on here is that you want charges filed because you think they should be and you're mad about that principle alone.
    And remember there is video footage of two WHITE construction workers who say Mike Brown was not a threat when he was shot and 8 different witnesses told police Brown was not a threat when he was being shot.
    ...does being white make them more reliable witnesses?
    And plus Darren Wilson didn't even bother to write a police report and according to Ferguson law that's illegal. This is a cover up, more witnesses then not say the cop shot Brown when he was away from Wilson, unarmed, and surrendering, and Darren Wilson never finished his police report. That's a sign he's hiding something
    so let's go back and look at what said in the post you're quoting:
    "it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified."

    so are we arguing that he should be charged because of the witnesses or are we arguing that the Ferguson PD is 🤬 this situation up and THEY should be investigated? because these are not the same thing.
    A community with 8 witnesses is saying something is wrong, and for them to be completely ignored is sickening and disgusting beyond belief. I can't understand how 8 witnesses can just be thrown away like this, for any reason.
    dude... it's not a community with 8 witnesses saying something: it's a community with 8 witnesses saying one thing and 6 witnesses saying another. you can't understand how 8 witnesses can "just be thrown away like this" ... but you're completely throwing away those 6 because you don't like what they have to say.

  • janklowjanklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    🤬 stop. I addressed your comments. Bottom line, when a obvious conclusion has been drawn to a situation, you're the one guy at the last second screaming "Um, i don't agree and your all wrong". I guess it makes you feel smarter always being the objective guy. There is no real debate with you
    yeah, i'm pretty sure that i'm not the guy who started 🤬 -talking in this thread because someone disagreed with him.

    also, i don't think "objective" means what you think it means (hint: "based on facts rather than feelings or opinions : not influenced by feelings").
    The physical evidence alone is enough to charge Wilson. Witness testimony-
    fun fact: witness testimony is not physical evidence. actually, neither is the failure to follow protocol.

    i would actually break down what i think happened, but then i remember you don't give a 🤬 about debating the topic.
  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    janklow wrote: »
    OH COME ON MAN, you're really letting me down with these posts. Let me rephrase it this way, if 8 witnesses said someone stole a car and 6 witnesses say he did not, wouldn't it make sense to bring up charges if MORE people say he did something wrong?
    no. it would depend on a) what the witnesses said, b) who these witnesses are (because i think we known literally nothing about their vantage points, etc), and c) what the rest of the evidence said.

    let's say your 8 witnesses are consistent, clear, and supported by forensic evidence? FILE CHARGES. but what's going on here is that you want charges filed because you think they should be and you're mad about that principle alone.
    And remember there is video footage of two WHITE construction workers who say Mike Brown was not a threat when he was shot and 8 different witnesses told police Brown was not a threat when he was being shot.
    ...does being white make them more reliable witnesses?
    And plus Darren Wilson didn't even bother to write a police report and according to Ferguson law that's illegal. This is a cover up, more witnesses then not say the cop shot Brown when he was away from Wilson, unarmed, and surrendering, and Darren Wilson never finished his police report. That's a sign he's hiding something
    so let's go back and look at what said in the post you're quoting:
    "it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified."

    so are we arguing that he should be charged because of the witnesses or are we arguing that the Ferguson PD is 🤬 this situation up and THEY should be investigated? because these are not the same thing.
    A community with 8 witnesses is saying something is wrong, and for them to be completely ignored is sickening and disgusting beyond belief. I can't understand how 8 witnesses can just be thrown away like this, for any reason.
    dude... it's not a community with 8 witnesses saying something: it's a community with 8 witnesses saying one thing and 6 witnesses saying another. you can't understand how 8 witnesses can "just be thrown away like this" ... but you're completely throwing away those 6 because you don't like what they have to say.

    8 witnesses saying one thing is powerful evidence on its own, and 6 witnesses saying something else is also good evidence but with Brown being unarmed AND the police officer not finishing the police report, AND video footage of witnesses calling the shooting unjustified, you damn right I expect charges to be brought up. The Ferguson PD is under investigation by the feds already, so my point is that a fair grand jury would bring up charges. 8 witnesses are being ignored because 8 of them are saying Wilson shot Brown in an unjustified manner because he was surrendering and was far away when he was killed UNARMED. A trial should be the main decider of this in a situation like this, so I will expect righteous anger by the community if charges aren't brought up. I can live with whatever verdict is rendered but no charges at all?? Not even excessive force? Hell 🤬 no. You're dead wrong on this.

  • kingblaze84kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    http://samuel-warde.com/2014/10/anonymous-claims-darren-wilson-not-indicted/

    Anonymous Claims Darren Wilson Will NOT Be Indicted For Mike Brown Killing\\

    OpJustice.jpg?resize=600%2C314

    Monday – October 27, 2014 3:00 PM ET USA

    Last night we announced that we have received over the past several days a series of leaks from two separate and unrelated sources regarding the long awaited Grand Jury decision regarding the murder of Mike Brown by Ferguson PD Officer Darren Wilson. In our opinion after careful analysis the sources are reliable, and the information we are about to reveal is true. Both sources are government employees with access to both internal government as well as confidential police communications. For reasons of safety we will not be revealing anything further on either our sources or the material leaked to us. The following is a synopses of the leaked information:

    On or about November 10, 2014 the Grand Jury decision will be announced. Darren Wilson will NOT be indicted on ANY charges related to the murder of Mike Brown. All local police Chiefs and jail commanders have been notified to begin preparing for major civil unrest. Governor Nixon has been notified of the impending announcement and has ordered the Missouri National Guard to begin preparations for a possible re-enstatement of the martial law that was declared at the beginning of the Ferguson protests.

    --If true, next week will be interesting and possibly tragic.
  • Say WhatSay What Members Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    OH COME ON MAN, you're really letting me down with these posts. Let me rephrase it this way, if 8 witnesses said someone stole a car and 6 witnesses say he did not, wouldn't it make sense to bring up charges if MORE people say he did something wrong?
    no. it would depend on a) what the witnesses said, b) who these witnesses are (because i think we known literally nothing about their vantage points, etc), and c) what the rest of the evidence said.

    let's say your 8 witnesses are consistent, clear, and supported by forensic evidence? FILE CHARGES. but what's going on here is that you want charges filed because you think they should be and you're mad about that principle alone.
    And remember there is video footage of two WHITE construction workers who say Mike Brown was not a threat when he was shot and 8 different witnesses told police Brown was not a threat when he was being shot.
    ...does being white make them more reliable witnesses?
    And plus Darren Wilson didn't even bother to write a police report and according to Ferguson law that's illegal. This is a cover up, more witnesses then not say the cop shot Brown when he was away from Wilson, unarmed, and surrendering, and Darren Wilson never finished his police report. That's a sign he's hiding something
    so let's go back and look at what said in the post you're quoting:
    "it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified."

    so are we arguing that he should be charged because of the witnesses or are we arguing that the Ferguson PD is 🤬 this situation up and THEY should be investigated? because these are not the same thing.
    A community with 8 witnesses is saying something is wrong, and for them to be completely ignored is sickening and disgusting beyond belief. I can't understand how 8 witnesses can just be thrown away like this, for any reason.
    dude... it's not a community with 8 witnesses saying something: it's a community with 8 witnesses saying one thing and 6 witnesses saying another. you can't understand how 8 witnesses can "just be thrown away like this" ... but you're completely throwing away those 6 because you don't like what they have to say.

    8 witnesses saying one thing is powerful evidence on its own, and 6 witnesses saying something else is also good evidence but with Brown being unarmed AND the police officer not finishing the police report, AND video footage of witnesses calling the shooting unjustified, you damn right I expect charges to be brought up. The Ferguson PD is under investigation by the feds already, so my point is that a fair grand jury would bring up charges. 8 witnesses are being ignored because 8 of them are saying Wilson shot Brown in an unjustified manner because he was surrendering and was far away when he was killed UNARMED. A trial should be the main decider of this in a situation like this, so I will expect righteous anger by the community if charges aren't brought up. I can live with whatever verdict is rendered but no charges at all?? Not even excessive force? Hell 🤬 no. You're dead wrong on this.

    I'm sure you can live with no charges also. I'm assuming the video wasn't clear enough. Witnesses wash each other and the physical evidence is leaning to what the officer stated.
  • StiffStiff Legion of Trill BG Members Posts: 7,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Say What wrote: »
    janklow wrote: »
    OH COME ON MAN, you're really letting me down with these posts. Let me rephrase it this way, if 8 witnesses said someone stole a car and 6 witnesses say he did not, wouldn't it make sense to bring up charges if MORE people say he did something wrong?
    no. it would depend on a) what the witnesses said, b) who these witnesses are (because i think we known literally nothing about their vantage points, etc), and c) what the rest of the evidence said.

    let's say your 8 witnesses are consistent, clear, and supported by forensic evidence? FILE CHARGES. but what's going on here is that you want charges filed because you think they should be and you're mad about that principle alone.
    And remember there is video footage of two WHITE construction workers who say Mike Brown was not a threat when he was shot and 8 different witnesses told police Brown was not a threat when he was being shot.
    ...does being white make them more reliable witnesses?
    And plus Darren Wilson didn't even bother to write a police report and according to Ferguson law that's illegal. This is a cover up, more witnesses then not say the cop shot Brown when he was away from Wilson, unarmed, and surrendering, and Darren Wilson never finished his police report. That's a sign he's hiding something
    so let's go back and look at what said in the post you're quoting:
    "it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified."

    so are we arguing that he should be charged because of the witnesses or are we arguing that the Ferguson PD is 🤬 this situation up and THEY should be investigated? because these are not the same thing.
    A community with 8 witnesses is saying something is wrong, and for them to be completely ignored is sickening and disgusting beyond belief. I can't understand how 8 witnesses can just be thrown away like this, for any reason.
    dude... it's not a community with 8 witnesses saying something: it's a community with 8 witnesses saying one thing and 6 witnesses saying another. you can't understand how 8 witnesses can "just be thrown away like this" ... but you're completely throwing away those 6 because you don't like what they have to say.

    8 witnesses saying one thing is powerful evidence on its own, and 6 witnesses saying something else is also good evidence but with Brown being unarmed AND the police officer not finishing the police report, AND video footage of witnesses calling the shooting unjustified, you damn right I expect charges to be brought up. The Ferguson PD is under investigation by the feds already, so my point is that a fair grand jury would bring up charges. 8 witnesses are being ignored because 8 of them are saying Wilson shot Brown in an unjustified manner because he was surrendering and was far away when he was killed UNARMED. A trial should be the main decider of this in a situation like this, so I will expect righteous anger by the community if charges aren't brought up. I can live with whatever verdict is rendered but no charges at all?? Not even excessive force? Hell 🤬 no. You're dead wrong on this.

    I'm sure you can live with no charges also. I'm assuming the video wasn't clear enough. Witnesses wash each other and the physical evidence is leaning to what the officer stated.

    No it's not.
  • Say WhatSay What Members Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭
    Stiff wrote: »
    Say What wrote: »
    janklow wrote: »
    OH COME ON MAN, you're really letting me down with these posts. Let me rephrase it this way, if 8 witnesses said someone stole a car and 6 witnesses say he did not, wouldn't it make sense to bring up charges if MORE people say he did something wrong?
    no. it would depend on a) what the witnesses said, b) who these witnesses are (because i think we known literally nothing about their vantage points, etc), and c) what the rest of the evidence said.

    let's say your 8 witnesses are consistent, clear, and supported by forensic evidence? FILE CHARGES. but what's going on here is that you want charges filed because you think they should be and you're mad about that principle alone.
    And remember there is video footage of two WHITE construction workers who say Mike Brown was not a threat when he was shot and 8 different witnesses told police Brown was not a threat when he was being shot.
    ...does being white make them more reliable witnesses?
    And plus Darren Wilson didn't even bother to write a police report and according to Ferguson law that's illegal. This is a cover up, more witnesses then not say the cop shot Brown when he was away from Wilson, unarmed, and surrendering, and Darren Wilson never finished his police report. That's a sign he's hiding something
    so let's go back and look at what said in the post you're quoting:
    "it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified."

    so are we arguing that he should be charged because of the witnesses or are we arguing that the Ferguson PD is 🤬 this situation up and THEY should be investigated? because these are not the same thing.
    A community with 8 witnesses is saying something is wrong, and for them to be completely ignored is sickening and disgusting beyond belief. I can't understand how 8 witnesses can just be thrown away like this, for any reason.
    dude... it's not a community with 8 witnesses saying something: it's a community with 8 witnesses saying one thing and 6 witnesses saying another. you can't understand how 8 witnesses can "just be thrown away like this" ... but you're completely throwing away those 6 because you don't like what they have to say.

    8 witnesses saying one thing is powerful evidence on its own, and 6 witnesses saying something else is also good evidence but with Brown being unarmed AND the police officer not finishing the police report, AND video footage of witnesses calling the shooting unjustified, you damn right I expect charges to be brought up. The Ferguson PD is under investigation by the feds already, so my point is that a fair grand jury would bring up charges. 8 witnesses are being ignored because 8 of them are saying Wilson shot Brown in an unjustified manner because he was surrendering and was far away when he was killed UNARMED. A trial should be the main decider of this in a situation like this, so I will expect righteous anger by the community if charges aren't brought up. I can live with whatever verdict is rendered but no charges at all?? Not even excessive force? Hell 🤬 no. You're dead wrong on this.

    I'm sure you can live with no charges also. I'm assuming the video wasn't clear enough. Witnesses wash each other and the physical evidence is leaning to what the officer stated.

    No it's not.

    I've read that it appears the shots began in the car
  • blackamericablackamerica Members Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Say What wrote: »
    [ c)
    I've read that it appears the shots began in the car
    Shots began in the car? Wtf does that prove? We DO know he shot the kid while he was running away 11 times. That insinuates he was shooting to 🤬 . That's the only evidence that should matter.
  • blackamericablackamerica Members Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm telling you the only way justice will be served is when family members of these policemen start coming up missing. The system is rigged. The jury is in on it. The media is in on it. The evidence supports Darren Wilson acted in rage. The police department did EVERYTHING in their power to cover up for the cop. The system failed us once again
  • StiffStiff Legion of Trill BG Members Posts: 7,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Say What wrote: »
    Stiff wrote: »
    Say What wrote: »
    janklow wrote: »
    OH COME ON MAN, you're really letting me down with these posts. Let me rephrase it this way, if 8 witnesses said someone stole a car and 6 witnesses say he did not, wouldn't it make sense to bring up charges if MORE people say he did something wrong?
    no. it would depend on a) what the witnesses said, b) who these witnesses are (because i think we known literally nothing about their vantage points, etc), and c) what the rest of the evidence said.

    let's say your 8 witnesses are consistent, clear, and supported by forensic evidence? FILE CHARGES. but what's going on here is that you want charges filed because you think they should be and you're mad about that principle alone.
    And remember there is video footage of two WHITE construction workers who say Mike Brown was not a threat when he was shot and 8 different witnesses told police Brown was not a threat when he was being shot.
    ...does being white make them more reliable witnesses?
    And plus Darren Wilson didn't even bother to write a police report and according to Ferguson law that's illegal. This is a cover up, more witnesses then not say the cop shot Brown when he was away from Wilson, unarmed, and surrendering, and Darren Wilson never finished his police report. That's a sign he's hiding something
    so let's go back and look at what said in the post you're quoting:
    "it should depend on WHY there are no charges. if the Ferguson PD had just patted Wilson on the back and said "🤬 it, who cares," THAT would be outrageous. perhaps that's what would have happened without the protests; i don't think i ever said they weren't justified."

    so are we arguing that he should be charged because of the witnesses or are we arguing that the Ferguson PD is 🤬 this situation up and THEY should be investigated? because these are not the same thing.
    A community with 8 witnesses is saying something is wrong, and for them to be completely ignored is sickening and disgusting beyond belief. I can't understand how 8 witnesses can just be thrown away like this, for any reason.
    dude... it's not a community with 8 witnesses saying something: it's a community with 8 witnesses saying one thing and 6 witnesses saying another. you can't understand how 8 witnesses can "just be thrown away like this" ... but you're completely throwing away those 6 because you don't like what they have to say.

    8 witnesses saying one thing is powerful evidence on its own, and 6 witnesses saying something else is also good evidence but with Brown being unarmed AND the police officer not finishing the police report, AND video footage of witnesses calling the shooting unjustified, you damn right I expect charges to be brought up. The Ferguson PD is under investigation by the feds already, so my point is that a fair grand jury would bring up charges. 8 witnesses are being ignored because 8 of them are saying Wilson shot Brown in an unjustified manner because he was surrendering and was far away when he was killed UNARMED. A trial should be the main decider of this in a situation like this, so I will expect righteous anger by the community if charges aren't brought up. I can live with whatever verdict is rendered but no charges at all?? Not even excessive force? Hell 🤬 no. You're dead wrong on this.

    I'm sure you can live with no charges also. I'm assuming the video wasn't clear enough. Witnesses wash each other and the physical evidence is leaning to what the officer stated.

    No it's not.

    I've read that it appears the shots began in the car

    Everybody agreed on at least one shot being fired while he was in the car window from the beginning. Witnesses have been saying that.
  • janklowjanklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    8 witnesses saying one thing is powerful evidence on its own, and 6 witnesses saying something else is also good evidence-
    8 witnesses are powerful, but 6 witnesses merely good? so the cut-off is 7 witnesses, or how does that work?
    -but with Brown being unarmed AND the police officer not finishing the police report, AND video footage of witnesses calling the shooting unjustified, you damn right I expect charges to be brought up.
    once again, i have to note that you're not citing physical evidence in this list, which is my concern.
    Brown being unarmed doesn't necessarily mean anything; i don't know exactly how Brown and Wilson physically stack up, but i'm not convinced being unarmed doesn't mean you can't put a hurting on someone. now, this might be a debate about non-lethal force that should have been used, etc, etc.
    not finishing the police report? a bad look but i would wonder how much it matters that he just shot someone.
    "video footage of witnesses calling the shooting unjustified?" what does this even mean, since you ALREADY cited the witnesses? who cares that they're on video?
    The Ferguson PD is under investigation by the feds already, so my point is that a fair grand jury would bring up charges.
    i don't have an issue with the Ferguson PD being investigated; it's also possible that the PD did some 🤬 to cover for a guy they didn't even need to.
    but this again is a separate issue to some extent.
    8 witnesses are being ignored because 8 of them are saying Wilson shot Brown in an unjustified manner because he was surrendering and was far away when he was killed UNARMED.
    and 6 of them disagree, so with this quote you AGAIN are ignoring the 6.
    really, i am going to keep beating this dead horse as long as you keep claiming "8 witnesses were ignored." this is not a situation where all the eyewitnesses agree.
    A trial should be the main decider of this in a situation like this, so I will expect righteous anger by the community if charges aren't brought up. I can live with whatever verdict is rendered but no charges at all?? Not even excessive force? Hell 🤬 no.
    there is literally NO WAY with the attitude you're showing now that a trial with a result you disagree with wouldn't result in the exact same rant. now, that's cool if you think he shot Brown unlawfully and all... but let's not pretend you'd be like, "okay, cool, he wasn't convicted and that's that."
    You're dead wrong on this.
    what's dead 🤬 wrong is the attitude of "i know what happened without an investigation and i expect a result based on that." come on.
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