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Earliest Reference describes Christ as a "Magician"

Melqart
Melqart EpistemophilicPronounced Malk-artGuests, Members Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭✭✭
jesus-bowl.grid-6x2.JPG

A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.

He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located.

Both Goddio and Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, think a "magus" could have practiced fortune telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Matthew refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world.

According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual.

"It has been known in Mesopotamia probably since the 3rd millennium B.C.," Fabre said. "The soothsayer interprets the forms taken by the oil poured into a cup of water in an interpretation guided by manuals."

He added that the individual, or "medium," then goes into a hallucinatory trance when studying the oil in the cup.

"They therefore see the divinities, or supernatural beings appear that they call to answer their questions with regard to the future," he said.

The magus might then have used the engraving on the bowl to legitimize his supernatural powers by invoking the name of Christ, the scientists theorize.

Weird science: Top unexplained mysteries Goddio said, "It is very probable that in Alexandria they were aware of the existence of Jesus" and of his associated legendary miracles, such as transforming water into wine, multiplying loaves of bread, conducting miraculous health cures, and the story of the resurrection itself.

While not discounting the Jesus Christ interpretation, other researchers have offered different possible interpretations for the engraving, which was made on the thin-walled ceramic bowl after it was fired, since slip was removed during the process.

Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais.

Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy, added that if Smith's interpretation proves valid, the word "Ogoistais" could then be connected to known religious groups that worshipped early Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Athena and Isis.

Hallof additionally pointed out that historians working at around, or just after, the time of the bowl, such as Strabon and Pausanias, refer to the 🤬 "Osogo" or "Ogoa," so a variation of this might be what's on the bowl. It is even possible that the bowl refers to both Jesus Christ and Osogo.

Fabre concluded, "It should be remembered that in Alexandria, paganism, Judaism and Christianity never evolved in isolation. All of these forms of religion (evolved) magical practices that seduced both the humble members of the population and the most well-off classes."

"It was in Alexandria where new religious constructions were made to propose solutions to the problem of man, of 🤬 's world," he added. "Cults of Isis, mysteries of Mithra, and early Christianity bear witness to this."

The bowl is currently on public display in the exhibit "Egypt's Sunken Treasures" at the Matadero Cultural Center in Madrid, Spain, until November 15.

Source: nbcnews.com/id/26972493/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/earliest-

reference-describes-christ-magician/#.VPeH--GSjTy


Definition of A Magician according to Dictionary.com

MAGICIAN
1
: one skilled in magic; especially : sorcerer
2
: one who performs tricks of illusion and sleight of hand
«1

Comments

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Jesus was a good magician for sure. Magicians are good at fooling people soooo......yeah.
  • KLICHE
    KLICHE Members Posts: 5,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jesus would have practiced Kabbalah, no??
  • Focal Point
    Focal Point Kushite descent... wandering child from Meru of Old TrentonMembers Posts: 16,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    interesting you really will never know, unless we get a time machine.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just more proof that the biblical Jesus could have existed and that the bible is true
  • CracceR
    CracceR ૐ☯★♑☮⌘ Members Posts: 4,346 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    Just more proof that the biblical Jesus could have existed and that the bible is true

    you said it urself "could"
    probably not tho

    the word christ probably came from the greek word Christós(anointed), and is alot older than jesus himself
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    CracceR wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    Just more proof that the biblical Jesus could have existed and that the bible is true

    you said it urself "could"
    probably not tho

    the word christ probably came from the greek word Christós(anointed), and is alot older than jesus himself

    Probably not based on what????

    And I know the meaning of the word
  • CracceR
    CracceR ૐ☯★♑☮⌘ Members Posts: 4,346 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    CracceR wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    Just more proof that the biblical Jesus could have existed and that the bible is true

    you said it urself "could"
    probably not tho

    the word christ probably came from the greek word Christós(anointed), and is alot older than jesus himself

    Probably not based on what????

    And I know the meaning of the word

    Probably not because there are not enough sources outside of the bible
    Probably not because 🤬 wouldn't send a son to earth
    Probably not because of all the sorcery that supposedly happened
    etc..

  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    CracceR wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    CracceR wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    Just more proof that the biblical Jesus could have existed and that the bible is true

    you said it urself "could"
    probably not tho

    the word christ probably came from the greek word Christós(anointed), and is alot older than jesus himself

    Probably not based on what????

    And I know the meaning of the word

    Probably not because there are not enough sources outside of the bible
    Probably not because 🤬 wouldn't send a son to earth
    Probably not because of all the sorcery that supposedly happened
    etc..

    a 🤬 would do what ever he wanted to do. what we would describe as sorcery would simply be his power made manifest before our eyes.

    Their not being enough sources is your own opinion and nothing more. A Jewish man called Christ probably existed.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    pretty sure "Christ" isn't a term that has to be specific to Jesus in any case
  • AZTG
    AZTG Members Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The thing with this, if true, is that if this "Christ" was a magician, then there would be other with powers similar to his. Can't just call a person something without others to compare it to right? As in, if this was Jesus and he was the first and last to showcase these powers, then he wouldn't be compared to their understanding of magicians and so wouldn't be called a magician.

    So if this really was the Jesus from the bible, and he was considered a great magician, then it would mean that there were others who preformed similar types of miracles wouldn't there? And that would mean the miracles that Jesus preformed weren't 🤬 ordained powers to only Jesus. Kinda disproves the whole Jesus was the son of 🤬 thing if this was really Jesus from the bible. So if I was a christian, I wouldn't use this as proof that Jesus existed.
  • Rubato Garcia
    Rubato Garcia Members Posts: 4,912 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I been saying forever that if Jesus was real he was no more than the David Blaine of his time
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can call anyone who does something you don't understand a magician. That does not mean it's magic.

    And I don't believe there exists a record of anyone else of the Time performing all the miracles attributed to Jesus. This cup is not necessarily connected to the biblical Christ but it could be a reference to him and how people felt about him.
  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeshua wasn't the only christ. There were, and are, tons of them.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I been saying forever that if Jesus was real he was no more than the David Blaine of his time

    I've said this since I was 17, so true
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    pretty sure "Christ" isn't a term that has to be specific to Jesus in any case

    Exactly, Christ was a pretty popular term to call many back in the day
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    pretty sure "Christ" isn't a term that has to be specific to Jesus in any case

    Exactly, Christ was a pretty popular term to call many back in the day

    calling it popular is a stretch
  • Melqart
    Melqart Epistemophilic Pronounced Malk-artGuests, Members Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    janklow wrote: »
    pretty sure "Christ" isn't a term that has to be specific to Jesus in any case

    mind posting what you're referencing? because i looked for others titled Christ before Jesus before i made this thread.
    AZTG wrote: »
    The thing with this, if true, is that if this "Christ" was a magician, then there would be other with powers similar to his. Can't just call a person something without others to compare it to right? As in, if this was Jesus and he was the first and last to showcase these powers, then he wouldn't be compared to their understanding of magicians and so wouldn't be called a magician.

    So if this really was the Jesus from the bible, and he was considered a great magician, then it would mean that there were others who preformed similar types of miracles wouldn't there? And that would mean the miracles that Jesus preformed weren't 🤬 ordained powers to only Jesus. Kinda disproves the whole Jesus was the son of 🤬 thing if this was really Jesus from the bible. So if I was a christian, I wouldn't use this as proof that Jesus existed.

    Apollonious of Tyana was reputed to be of the same calibur, which cause caused some greeks to scoff chrisitianity, because they supposedly had their own Leader who represented the Saviour Archetype. @AZTG
  • Melqart
    Melqart Epistemophilic Pronounced Malk-artGuests, Members Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KLICHE wrote: »
    Jesus would have practiced Kabbalah, no??


    Nah, Kabbalah was created in its current form in the middle ages by Isaac Luria. The Theological doctrine that forms the foundation of Kabbalah probably drew in part from whatever tradition Essenes like Jesus would have practiced. @KLICHE
  • AZTG
    AZTG Members Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Meroe wrote: »
    janklow wrote: »
    pretty sure "Christ" isn't a term that has to be specific to Jesus in any case

    mind posting what you're referencing? because i looked for others titled Christ before Jesus before i made this thread.
    AZTG wrote: »
    The thing with this, if true, is that if this "Christ" was a magician, then there would be other with powers similar to his. Can't just call a person something without others to compare it to right? As in, if this was Jesus and he was the first and last to showcase these powers, then he wouldn't be compared to their understanding of magicians and so wouldn't be called a magician.

    So if this really was the Jesus from the bible, and he was considered a great magician, then it would mean that there were others who preformed similar types of miracles wouldn't there? And that would mean the miracles that Jesus preformed weren't 🤬 ordained powers to only Jesus. Kinda disproves the whole Jesus was the son of 🤬 thing if this was really Jesus from the bible. So if I was a christian, I wouldn't use this as proof that Jesus existed.

    Apollonious of Tyana was reputed to be of the same calibur, which cause caused some greeks to scoff chrisitianity, because they supposedly had their own Man who represented the Saviour Archetype. @AZTG

    The thing about saviour archetypes is that there are tons of them. But in this case, if this was Jesus or about Jesus, and he was the only one with power to walk over water, people would not compare him to or call him a magician. Instead a new word would be created. Let's say their definition of magician was someone who could do something like breathe fire, and Jesus came out and walked on water, you wouldn't name them the same thing.

    That means that they had a definition of a magician, and they were people that could do certain things, and Jesus could do similar things, and so they called him a magician.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    AZTG wrote: »
    Meroe wrote: »
    janklow wrote: »
    pretty sure "Christ" isn't a term that has to be specific to Jesus in any case

    mind posting what you're referencing? because i looked for others titled Christ before Jesus before i made this thread.
    AZTG wrote: »
    The thing with this, if true, is that if this "Christ" was a magician, then there would be other with powers similar to his. Can't just call a person something without others to compare it to right? As in, if this was Jesus and he was the first and last to showcase these powers, then he wouldn't be compared to their understanding of magicians and so wouldn't be called a magician.

    So if this really was the Jesus from the bible, and he was considered a great magician, then it would mean that there were others who preformed similar types of miracles wouldn't there? And that would mean the miracles that Jesus preformed weren't 🤬 ordained powers to only Jesus. Kinda disproves the whole Jesus was the son of 🤬 thing if this was really Jesus from the bible. So if I was a christian, I wouldn't use this as proof that Jesus existed.

    Apollonious of Tyana was reputed to be of the same calibur, which cause caused some greeks to scoff chrisitianity, because they supposedly had their own Man who represented the Saviour Archetype. @AZTG

    The thing about saviour archetypes is that there are tons of them. But in this case, if this was Jesus or about Jesus, and he was the only one with power to walk over water, people would not compare him to or call him a magician. Instead a new word would be created. Let's say their definition of magician was someone who could do something like breathe fire, and Jesus came out and walked on water, you wouldn't name them the same thing.

    That means that they had a definition of a magician, and they were people that could do certain things, and Jesus could do similar things, and so they called him a magician.

    Don't you think that is a stretch??? you don't know how they defined what a magician did and why would they create a new word for it if one already existed that could describe what someone believed jesus dd.

    and what other performed these exact same things at the time jesus did them.
  • SneakDZA
    SneakDZA damn, am I a sinner? Members Posts: 11,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

    that would be one hell of a magic trick to get his name engraved on a bowl 200 years before he was born.
  • AZTG
    AZTG Members Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    AZTG wrote: »
    Meroe wrote: »
    janklow wrote: »
    pretty sure "Christ" isn't a term that has to be specific to Jesus in any case

    mind posting what you're referencing? because i looked for others titled Christ before Jesus before i made this thread.
    AZTG wrote: »
    The thing with this, if true, is that if this "Christ" was a magician, then there would be other with powers similar to his. Can't just call a person something without others to compare it to right? As in, if this was Jesus and he was the first and last to showcase these powers, then he wouldn't be compared to their understanding of magicians and so wouldn't be called a magician.

    So if this really was the Jesus from the bible, and he was considered a great magician, then it would mean that there were others who preformed similar types of miracles wouldn't there? And that would mean the miracles that Jesus preformed weren't 🤬 ordained powers to only Jesus. Kinda disproves the whole Jesus was the son of 🤬 thing if this was really Jesus from the bible. So if I was a christian, I wouldn't use this as proof that Jesus existed.

    Apollonious of Tyana was reputed to be of the same calibur, which cause caused some greeks to scoff chrisitianity, because they supposedly had their own Man who represented the Saviour Archetype. @AZTG

    The thing about saviour archetypes is that there are tons of them. But in this case, if this was Jesus or about Jesus, and he was the only one with power to walk over water, people would not compare him to or call him a magician. Instead a new word would be created. Let's say their definition of magician was someone who could do something like breathe fire, and Jesus came out and walked on water, you wouldn't name them the same thing.

    That means that they had a definition of a magician, and they were people that could do certain things, and Jesus could do similar things, and so they called him a magician.

    Don't you think that is a stretch??? you don't know how they defined what a magician did and why would they create a new word for it if one already existed that could describe what someone believed jesus dd.

    and what other performed these exact same things at the time jesus did them.

    Not saying this is Jesus though. Not saying its not either. I'm just saying, if someone was to tell me this was Jesus for a fact, and then say either they gave Jesus the title of magician or that Jesus gave himself the title of magician, to me, it would mean there were other magicians that had similar powers. You have to have similar traits or powers to other magicians if you were gonna wear the title.

    But again, I'm not saying this disproves Jesus, what I am saying is if someone used this and say boom here is concrete proof that Jesus existed, to me, it'd just mean there were others similar to Jesus.

    And when it comes to who else performed same or similar miracles around that time, I'm sure if you search between 500 bc to 500 ad, you will find more than a hanful of people around the world with similar stories. I'm sure you read about a bunch of them.

    But the whole point if faith is to put your trust in something without being able to prove it. So concrete evidence shouldn't matter to a believer.
  • alissowack
    alissowack Members Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭
    It would help to understand what was intended by the miracles that Jesus performed. In his ministry, he didn't do these things for entertainment purposes. Jesus was not like..."For my next trick, I'm going to turn water into wine. Don't believe me...just watch." If that was the case, he wouldn't be the only one in the business of magic. He did these things to show he was the Son of 🤬 and came to save the world from sin. His ministry would serve no purpose if it wasn't meant to bring mankind closer to 🤬 . His "magic" would be in vain.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Meroe wrote: »
    mind posting what you're referencing? because i looked for others titled Christ before Jesus before i made this thread.
    just that Christ isn't a name, it's a title

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    alissowack wrote: »
    It would help to understand what was intended by the miracles that Jesus performed. In his ministry, he didn't do these things for entertainment purposes. Jesus was not like..."For my next trick, I'm going to turn water into wine. Don't believe me...just watch." If that was the case, he wouldn't be the only one in the business of magic. He did these things to show he was the Son of 🤬 and came to save the world from sin. His ministry would serve no purpose if it wasn't meant to bring mankind closer to 🤬 . His "magic" would be in vain.

    So when are we gonna see Jesus' next magic trick? 2,000 years later, we still waiting. He can do magic in front of mofos back in the day but when people wana see proof now, we gotta entertain ourselves with David Blaine?