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Why aren't black americans in favor of far leftism?

LUClEN
LUClEN Absence makes the heart grow fonder of someone elseMembers Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 2015 in The Social Lounge
I like far leftism in the way that will translate into a soft of Scandinavian system

But a log of posters here oppose it

i know janklow is against it for gun ownership reasons

But why are others opposed to it?
«1

Comments

  • jono
    jono Right fist = power, left fist = unity Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not against it at all but you should go fix those typos I had no idea wtf was going on.

    What you will find is many Blacks are socially conservative (due primarily to religion).
  • StillFaggyAF
    StillFaggyAF Queer LGBT CommunityMembers Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what is "far leftism"

    and black Americans are actually quite conservative
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    I actually read somewhere Blacks in America are more likely to support leftist, socialist policies compared to the wider population. Personally, I've always been more of a moderate then anything else. Left on social issues, a little conservative on issues like guns and immigration. I'd love to see America's govt be as generous as northern Europe and other nations when it comes to housing and benefits for the elderly and those who need it. Too many homeless people in this nation.

    On 🤬 marriage though, Blacks are definitely more conservative then others, but leftist when it comes to abortion I think
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    LUClEN wrote: »
    i know janklow is against it for gun ownership reasons
    amen

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/29/young-people-socialism_n_1175218.html

    There were only two other groups among whom socialism's positives outweighed its negatives -- blacks, who say they favor socialism 55 to 36 percent, and liberal Democrats, who say they favor socialism 59 to 39 percent. These were also the only two groups to show net favor for socialism in the 2010 poll.

    --When I went to protest marches with Occupy Wall Street back in the day and the Eric Garner situation, I always saw a random Black group pushing socialism.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    EUROPEAN/scandinavian styled socialism and leftism will never work in the usa the cultures are just too different.

    also our economies are intrinsically very different.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    AggyAF wrote: »
    what is "far leftism"

    and black Americans are actually quite conservative

    What is considered left or right changes from nation to nation but basically they try to enforce Egalitarianism.

    welfare states, social progressivism, pro-🤬 , pro feminism, pro abortion, GUN control all these thing typify the left. In my opinion they also tend to be anti-religious. Far leftism is all these things turned the 🤬 up
  • Focal Point
    Focal Point Kushite descent... wandering child from Meru of Old TrentonMembers Posts: 16,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Blacks are in generally a conservative ppl at heart
  • Ubuntu1
    Ubuntu1 Members Posts: 852 ✭✭✭
    Besides maybe as a classification to distinguish supporting some degree of economic redistribution (left-wing) with supporting laissez faire capitalism (right-wing) I think the left vs. right dichotomy is meaningless. 'Liberalism' and 'conservatism' both involve vague and contradicting political values that have nothing to do with each other (there isn't necessarily an underlying principle that connects being pro-gun control with being pro-choice when it comes to abortion or for capital punishment and against 🤬 marriage). Libertarianism at least revolves around a single principle (property rights and by extension autonomy) so there is a consistent libertarian position to have on seemingly unrelated issues. Liberals who are anti-choice or conservatives who want prostitution to be legalized can't really be criticized for their inconsistency because neither liberalism or conservatism have ever been clearly defined. I don't think there's any inherent connection between novelty seeking/openness and psychological conservatism and being politically liberal or left-wing and politically 'conservative' or right-wing either (I don't understand why some people would define political conservatism as a desire to maintain or reestablish traditional systems if that would mean that Russian Marxist-Leninists are 'conservative' even though they share the same ideology as Americans who would be classified as far leftists. It's meaningless to define conservatism according to whether or not the preferred society or view has existed or been held before as opposed to it's inherent nature). Liberals are supposed to be more empathetic but novelty seeking correlates positively with psychopathy and negatively with empathy (and apparently there's a connection between nostalgia and empathy). Some liberals pride themselves on the fact that liberals generally have higher IQs than conservatives even though libertarians have higher IQs, on average, than both liberals and conservatives. Libertarians also generally score higher than both liberals and conservatives on ambiguity tolerance (liberals higher than conservatives). Conservatives tend to donate more to charity (I don't know whether or not that can be put into context) and apparently love their parents more than liberals and libertarians (libertarians the least). I won't get into why I think the liberalism - nurturing mother vs. conservative strict father preference some researchers ascribe to might be overly simplistic.

    I agree with liberals on most issues but not necessarily for the same reasons. I identify (intellectually) with an inconsistent version of hedonistic utilitarianism. I don't care about change for the sake of change. I think the argument for economic redistribution (distribution resources according to benefit alone is my my ideal) should be rooted in universal compassion and not a concern for 'justice' or 'fairness'. I think equal consideration of everyone's interests is what's desirable and not actual equality in every respect (ie. everyone being equally well-off would be my ideal only because I want everyone to be as well off as they could be but a world where some people are better off than others is better than one where everyone is equally disadvantaged and I don't support political or literal economic egalitarianism for it's own sake, either). I don't think women and people of color should be given more or less consideration (discrimination against men and whites is just as real and as wrong as discrimination against women and people of color since the suffering of white men is just as intrinsically dis-valuable as the suffering of black women). Happiness-suffering is the only criterion I would use for regarding a decision, policy or 'thing' as extrinsically good or bad and not identifying with/caring about the happiness-suffering of all sentient beings is the only thing I consider to be intrinsically criticisable.
    What you will find is many Blacks are socially conservative (due primarily to religion).

    There are religious liberals and secular conservatives. On average, religious liberals score higher on empathy than secular liberals do.
    what is "far leftism"

    If I'm not mistaken communism is as far left as you can get, followed by socialism and then liberalism which is left of center.

    I don't know why I wasted so much time on this post.




  • Maximus Rex
    Maximus Rex Pulchritudo in Conspectu Regis The EmpreyanMembers Posts: 6,354 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Going to work everyday to have over half my income go to subsidize some muthafucka with cradle to grave entitlements because he doesn't have the drive or ingenuity that I or some cat does to make it happen? Naw mayne, I'm cool on that. I' so cool on that.
    Too many homeless people in this nation.

    Homelessness is a lifestyle choice in a America, bruh.

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Going to work everyday to have over half my income go to subsidize some muthafucka with cradle to grave entitlements because he doesn't have the drive or ingenuity that I or some cat does to make it happen? Naw mayne, I'm cool on that. I' so cool on that.
    Too many homeless people in this nation.

    Homelessness is a lifestyle choice in a America, bruh.

    Homelessness isn't a lifestyle choice for the most part in America, rents and mortgages are very high in many parts of the nation now for a lot of people. Some people do prefer the streets but there was a story of a chick in Cali who was homeless for 3 months because her landlord jacked up the rent like 15% after her lease ended. It happens a lot....50 million Americans are on food stamps now because cost of living for so many is going up and they can't afford it. My mom is a nurse and in the school she works at, like 80% of the kids use free lunch programs. And a big amount live in homeless shelters
  • luke1733
    luke1733 Members Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭✭
    Not exactly familiar with what far-leftism has stated they are for and besides stating what they are for I would include showing through example what they represent
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Absence makes the heart grow fonder of someone else Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Going to work everyday to have over half my income go to subsidize some muthafucka with cradle to grave entitlements because he doesn't have the drive or ingenuity that I or some cat does to make it happen? Naw mayne, I'm cool on that. I' so cool on that.
    Too many homeless people in this nation.

    Homelessness is a lifestyle choice in a America, bruh.

    If someone is homeless for a long time, I think often it can be a "choice" ( dont believe choice exists, but that's another discussion)
    I have a friend whose brother is homeless, and they have tried reaching out to him as a family, and he honestly loves it. He likes the drugs, the instability, the wrecklessness. Maybe it's just his addictions consuming him, but he has chosen homelessness over living with fam every time.

    A lot of homeless people are mentally ill though. Those people, are stuck. Their decision seems to be based on a mental state they had no part in creating.
  • DonGeis
    DonGeis Members Posts: 15
    LUClEN wrote: »
    Going to work everyday to have over half my income go to subsidize some muthafucka with cradle to grave entitlements because he doesn't have the drive or ingenuity that I or some cat does to make it happen? Naw mayne, I'm cool on that. I' so cool on that.
    Too many homeless people in this nation.

    ( dont believe choice exists, but that's another discussion)

    What exactly does this mean
  • (Nope)
    (Nope) NawfNawfMembers Posts: 2,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Ubuntu1 wrote: »
    Besides maybe as a classification to distinguish supporting some degree of economic redistribution (left-wing) with supporting laissez faire capitalism (right-wing) I think the left vs. right dichotomy is meaningless. 'Liberalism' and 'conservatism' both involve vague and contradicting political values that have nothing to do with each other (there isn't necessarily an underlying principle that connects being pro-gun control with being pro-choice when it comes to abortion or for capital punishment and against 🤬 marriage). Libertarianism at least revolves around a single principle (property rights and by extension autonomy) so there is a consistent libertarian position to have on seemingly unrelated issues. Liberals who are anti-choice or conservatives who want prostitution to be legalized can't really be criticized for their inconsistency because neither liberalism or conservatism have ever been clearly defined. I don't think there's any inherent connection between novelty seeking/openness and psychological conservatism and being politically liberal or left-wing and politically 'conservative' or right-wing either (I don't understand why some people would define political conservatism as a desire to maintain or reestablish traditional systems if that would mean that Russian Marxist-Leninists are 'conservative' even though they share the same ideology as Americans who would be classified as far leftists. It's meaningless to define conservatism according to whether or not the preferred society or view has existed or been held before as opposed to it's inherent nature). Liberals are supposed to be more empathetic but novelty seeking correlates positively with psychopathy and negatively with empathy (and apparently there's a connection between nostalgia and empathy). Some liberals pride themselves on the fact that liberals generally have higher IQs than conservatives even though libertarians have higher IQs, on average, than both liberals and conservatives. Libertarians also generally score higher than both liberals and conservatives on ambiguity tolerance (liberals higher than conservatives). Conservatives tend to donate more to charity (I don't know whether or not that can be put into context) and apparently love their parents more than liberals and libertarians (libertarians the least). I won't get into why I think the liberalism - nurturing mother vs. conservative strict father preference some researchers ascribe to might be overly simplistic.

    I agree with liberals on most issues but not necessarily for the same reasons. I identify (intellectually) with an inconsistent version of hedonistic utilitarianism. I don't care about change for the sake of change. I think the argument for economic redistribution (distribution resources according to benefit alone is my my ideal) should be rooted in universal compassion and not a concern for 'justice' or 'fairness'. I think equal consideration of everyone's interests is what's desirable and not actual equality in every respect (ie. everyone being equally well-off would be my ideal only because I want everyone to be as well off as they could be but a world where some people are better off than others is better than one where everyone is equally disadvantaged and I don't support political or literal economic egalitarianism for it's own sake, either). I don't think women and people of color should be given more or less consideration (discrimination against men and whites is just as real and as wrong as discrimination against women and people of color since the suffering of white men is just as intrinsically dis-valuable as the suffering of black women). Happiness-suffering is the only criterion I would use for regarding a decision, policy or 'thing' as extrinsically good or bad and not identifying with/caring about the happiness-suffering of all sentient beings is the only thing I consider to be intrinsically criticisable.
    What you will find is many Blacks are socially conservative (due primarily to religion).

    There are religious liberals and secular conservatives. On average, religious liberals score higher on empathy than secular liberals do.
    what is "far leftism"

    If I'm not mistaken communism is as far left as you can get, followed by socialism and then liberalism which is left of center.

    I don't know why I wasted so much time on this post.




    Great post! However, I'm not sure where you found your numbers concerning correlations and political affiliation.

    We are essentially the only country who uses the word liberal to mean left. Outside of America liberalism is what we would consider conservatism. And Libertarianism within America--according to Noam Chomsky is an aberration. It permits high concentration of authority and control by private industry. I'm not so sure everyone on the libertarian train understands our current political climate, however, that's not my business. The great thing about these parliamentary systems in Sweeden or Norway is they represent a larger variety of political ideals. There is actually pluralism within the government, that is sorely lacking here.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leftism taken too far is UN American and really is the reason why America is decaying
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A lot of European leftism is based on egalitarianism which is not an American value
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Absence makes the heart grow fonder of someone else Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    A lot of European leftism is based on egalitarianism which is not an American value

    "All men are created equal"

    "I have a dream"



    Yeah, egalitarianism is mad unamerican
    gimme a break
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    LUClEN wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    A lot of European leftism is based on egalitarianism which is not an American value

    "All men are created equal"

    "I have a dream"



    Yeah, egalitarianism is mad unamerican
    gimme a break

    culturally egalitarianism is not American " I have a dream" is from MLK you silly Canadian

    American society was organized around liberty not equality we are owned just enough equality before the law to ensure our liberty. These are american ideals.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A society moves towards it's ideals the model for modern European states originated from the French revolution

    And they focus more on equality but Americanism is focused more on liberty

  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the left has everything wrong and western Europe is falling apart
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    the left has everything wrong and western Europe is falling apart

    Everything wrong.....? I'm a moderate so I have conservative and liberal ideas but if it wasn't for leftist ideas, America wouldn't have a minimum wage, workers rights, freedom to vote, etc. Sometimes I think you say things just to sound provocative.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    the left has everything wrong and western Europe is falling apart

    Everything wrong.....? I'm a moderate so I have conservative and liberal ideas but if it wasn't for leftist ideas, America wouldn't have a minimum wage, workers rights, freedom to vote, etc. Sometimes I think you say things just to sound provocative.

    It was an over exaggeration to make a point. The general philosophy and purpose of leftism is egalitarianism and America is not really about that.

    We have to have a certain amount of equality before the law but it's liberty above equality that's what makes America different from Europe.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    zombie wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    the left has everything wrong and western Europe is falling apart

    Everything wrong.....? I'm a moderate so I have conservative and liberal ideas but if it wasn't for leftist ideas, America wouldn't have a minimum wage, workers rights, freedom to vote, etc. Sometimes I think you say things just to sound provocative.

    It was an over exaggeration to make a point. The general philosophy and purpose of leftism is egalitarianism and America is not really about that.

    We have to have a certain amount of equality before the law but it's liberty above equality that's what makes America different from Europe.

    Culturally you are correct but as time goes on, I bet more and more Americans will vote for people who will put more of a focus at helping people at home then babysitting the world. I read today most public school children are in homes that qualify for free lunch programs, it shows poverty in America is growing.
  • zombie
    zombie Members Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zombie wrote: »
    zombie wrote: »
    the left has everything wrong and western Europe is falling apart

    Everything wrong.....? I'm a moderate so I have conservative and liberal ideas but if it wasn't for leftist ideas, America wouldn't have a minimum wage, workers rights, freedom to vote, etc. Sometimes I think you say things just to sound provocative.

    It was an over exaggeration to make a point. The general philosophy and purpose of leftism is egalitarianism and America is not really about that.

    We have to have a certain amount of equality before the law but it's liberty above equality that's what makes America different from Europe.

    Culturally you are correct but as time goes on, I bet more and more Americans will vote for people who will put more of a focus at helping people at home then babysitting the world. I read today most public school children are in homes that qualify for free lunch programs, it shows poverty in America is growing.

    The united states has suffered worse and we are not that bad now, people forget our economy was worse just a few years ago yet people still crying. A perfect system cannot be created but liberals have driven this idea into minds of people that if we just give more power/money to the government homelessness and other ills will be solved.

    A certain amount of poverty and human suffering has to be factored into the system and accepted. if America changed it's foregin policy and did a 180 on everything it does worldwide nothing would change at home because we are not going to turn around and spend that money on homelessness or education or anything like that