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DC COMICS CANCELS "BATGIRL" JOKER VARIANT COVER AT ARTIST'S REQUEST

soul rattler
soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval CommandHOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
BG-Cv41-Joker-variant-solicitation-88c4e-31e8d.jpg

The highly criticized variant cover for "Batgirl" #41 will not be published by DC Comics, CBR News has learned. This move was made at the request of the cover's artist, Rafael Albuquerque.

"My intention was never to hurt or upset anyone through my art," Albuquerque said in a statement. "For that reason, I have recommended to DC that the variant cover be pulled."

The image was released Friday, as one of 25 Joker-themed variant covers scheduled for release in June. Albuquerque's "Batgirl" variant took inspiration from Alan Moore and Brian Bolland's famous 1988 story "Batman: The Killing Joke," in which Barbara Gordon/Batgirl was shot and paralyzed by the Joker. It has been commonly interpreted, though not definitively established within the story, that the character was also sexually assaulted.

The "Batgirl" #41 variant quickly received criticism for highlighting a dark period in the character's history, especially when juxtaposed with the current youthful, more optimistic direction of the series under the creative team of co-writers Cameron Stewart & Brenden Fletcher and artist Babs Tarr. Multiple websites ran editorials critical of the image, and the hashtag #changethecover drew dozens of posts on Twitter and Tumblr asking DC to not release the variant.

In DC's official statement on the situation, it's indicated that "threats of violence and harassment" were made following the release of the image. Both Albuquerque and DC Entertainment's full statements on the cancellation of the cover follow in full.

Rafael Albuquerque:

My Batgirl variant cover artwork was designed to pay homage to a comic that I really admire, and I know is a favorite of many readers. 'The Killing Joke' is part of Batgirl’s canon and artistically, I couldn't avoid portraying the traumatic relationship between Barbara Gordon and the Joker.
For me, it was just a creepy cover that brought up something from the character’s past that I was able to interpret artistically. But it has become clear, that for others, it touched a very important nerve. I respect these opinions and, despite whether the discussion is right or wrong, no opinion should be discredited.


My intention was never to hurt or upset anyone through my art. For that reason, I have recommended to DC that the variant cover be pulled. I'm incredibly pleased that DC Comics is listening to my concerns and will not be publishing the cover art in June as previously announced.

With all due respect,

Rafa

DC Entertainment:

We publish comic books about the greatest heroes in the world, and the most evil villains imaginable. The Joker variant covers for June are in recognition of the 75th anniversary of the Joker.
Regardless if fans like Rafael Albuquerque’s homage to Alan Moore’s THE KILLING JOKE graphic novel from 25 years ago, or find it inconsistent with the current tonality of the Batgirl books - threats of violence and harassment are wrong and have no place in comics or society.

We stand by our creative talent, and per Rafael’s request, DC Comics will not publish the Batgirl variant. – DC Entertainment
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/dc-comics-cancels-batgirl-joker-variant-at-artists-request
Thoughts?

Comments

  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Smart move. It was pretty tasteless.
  • lord nemesis
    lord nemesis You ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight? Members Posts: 11,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    I don't see the big deal but oh well.
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    It's about context.

    If that was a panel in lets say one of Scott Snyder's many grimdark stories like Death of the Family that would be one thing.

    However the rest of the Joker cover variants for that month are lighthearted in comparison and don't depict anything more than a harmless crime, standard attack or prank from The Joker. At the most you'd get Joker venom victims. It definitely comes across as something more mean spirited and in bad taste when compared to the rest.

    I mean compare the following sequence of images and let me know which one completely sticks out like a sore thumb.

    SM-Cv41-joker-variant-solicitation-55598.jpg

    JUSTL-Cv41-Joker-var-9daa1.jpg

    GOTHAC-Cv7-joker-variant-solicitation-2-a9326.jpg

    FLSH-Cv41-joker-variant-f7a98.jpg

    BG-Cv41-Joker-variant-solicitation-68d7f.jpg

    Another thing is that particular comic series is not only lighthearted & tonally positive but also features a heroine who embraces superheroics and does her best to be the most competent hero that she can be.

    Here we have the foundations of the book's tone completely shaken up to the point that it lands on the opposite end of the spectrum unlike the other variant covers. On top of that we have the competent heroine who smirks at the face of adversity cowering like an incompetent victim and with tears of horror in her eyes to further accentuate that point at that.

    Hell yeah that could come across as pretty jarring especially to people who regularly read that particular title. I'm sure if a Joker variant for Red Hood & The Outlaws featured a similar scenario with Joker hovering over a cowering Jason Todd with a crow bar it would also ruffle feathers. Simply because the tone and content of RH&tO doesn't gel with portraying Jason in that light.

    So I see no problem with people not only being offended by it but the artist himself deciding he'd like to have it pulled from publication altogether. Remember it was the artist who made the suggestion and insisted on it to DC not the other way around.

    Bad taste is simply bad taste and I'm glad I live in a society that is still mostly sane enough to comprehend that.

    Furthermore I'm someone who completely hates the notion that some creators and fans have that The Killing Joke must always so greatly define every single moment of Barbara Gordon's life. To the point that it becomes a crutch and makes it seem like she was not able to overcome that adverse situation because it never leaves her mind.

    Or how it promotes the notion that she's pretty much nothing without that story defining her; well I'm glad to see people take a stand against further exploitation of that overrated ass story's narrative.
  • nujerz84
    nujerz84 NJMembers Posts: 15,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Broddie wrote: »
    It's about context.

    If that was a panel in lets say one of Scott Snyder's many grimdark stories like Death of the Family that would be one thing.

    However the rest of the Joker cover variants for that month are lighthearted in comparison and don't depict anything more than a harmless crime, standard attack or prank from The Joker. At the most you'd get Joker venom victims. It definitely comes across as something more mean spirited and in bad taste when compared to the rest.

    I mean compare the following sequence of images and let me know which one completely sticks out like a sore thumb.

    SM-Cv41-joker-variant-solicitation-55598.jpg

    JUSTL-Cv41-Joker-var-9daa1.jpg

    GOTHAC-Cv7-joker-variant-solicitation-2-a9326.jpg

    FLSH-Cv41-joker-variant-f7a98.jpg

    BG-Cv41-Joker-variant-solicitation-68d7f.jpg

    Another thing is that particular comic series is not only lighthearted & tonally positive but also features a heroine who embraces superheroics and does her best to be the most competent hero that she can be.

    Here we have the foundations of the book's tone completely shaken up to the point that it lands on the opposite end of the spectrum unlike the other variant covers. On top of that we have the competent heroine who smirks at the face of adversity cowering like an incompetent victim and with tears of horror in her eyes to further accentuate that point at that.

    Hell yeah that could come across as pretty jarring especially to people who regularly read that particular title. I'm sure if a Joker variant for Red Hood & The Outlaws featured a similar scenario with Joker hovering over a cowering Jason Todd with a crow bar it would also ruffle feathers. Simply because the tone and content of RH&tO doesn't gel with portraying Jason in that light.

    So I see no problem with people not only being offended by it but the artist himself deciding he'd like to have it pulled from publication altogether. Remember it was the artist who made the suggestion and insisted on it to DC not the other way around.

    Bad taste is simply bad taste and I'm glad I live in a society that is still mostly sane enough to comprehend that.

    Furthermore I'm someone who completely hates the notion that some creators and fans have that The Killing Joke must always so greatly define every single moment of Barbara Gordon's life. To the point that it becomes a crutch and makes it seem like she was not able to overcome that adverse situation because it never leaves her mind.

    Or how it promotes the notion that she's pretty much nothing without that story defining her; well I'm glad to see people take a stand against further exploitation of that overrated ass story's narrative.

    All I got from your long ass post


    crying-baby.jpg


    calm the 🤬 down.
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    All that posts tells me is that you're dumb as hell and your reading comprehension is pretty atrocious.

    The dude said he didn't see what the big deal was and I simply broke down for him where the problem was with that cover among a lot of the comic book reading community. At no point in that post was there any whining or crying. I simply stated that I could sympathize and even agree with the people who made a big stink about it because I also do feel it's pretty tasteless contextually. It's simply sharing information for clarification as well as my personal take on things. Don't like it. Don't read my posts.

    I swear sometimes I wonder why I even bother with this forum anymore since some people get so aggy when we use the forum as an actual forum for discussion.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Regulator
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did u have to quote the 🤬 tho?

    The guy's got jelly where his brains should be. I swear.
  • nujerz84
    nujerz84 NJMembers Posts: 15,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Broddie wrote: »
    All that posts tells me is that you're dumb as hell and your reading comprehension is pretty atrocious.

    The dude said he didn't see what the big deal was and I simply broke down for him where the problem was with that cover among a lot of the comic book reading community. At no point in that post was there any whining or crying. I simply stated that I could sympathize and even agree with the people who made a big stink about it because I also do feel it's pretty tasteless contextually. It's simply sharing information for clarification as well as my personal take on things. Don't like it. Don't read my posts.

    I swear sometimes I wonder why I even bother with this forum anymore since some people get so aggy when we use the forum as an actual forum for discussion.

    Here the point there is nothing wrong with the cover, hence no need to try to explain it in the first place.

    The crybaby photos applies cause as you know comic fans are the biggest babies complainers of virtually any medium.. and it was the complaints and 🤬 that eventually helped get the cover was pulled. So to anyone mad or upset by the cover my response to them is get the 🤬 over it. It's a 🤬 comic book cover.

    I feel the critique of the character is slightly off base:

    Another thing is that particular comic series is not only lighthearted & tonally positive but also features a heroine who embraces superheroics and does her best to be the most competent hero that she can be.

    Here we have the foundations of the book's tone completely shaken up to the point that it lands on the opposite end of the spectrum unlike the other variant covers. On top of that we have the competent heroine who smirks at the face of adversity cowering like an incompetent victim and with tears of horror in her eyes to further accentuate that point at that.



    Just because Batgirl's new team has taken an ABC Family High School Teen Drama approach with her character from both a story-line and artistic standpoint (from looking like early 20's adult to now looking like she is 14 years old).

    It doesn't dismisses the first 34 issues where 1. She was constantly questioning and doubting her abilities taking up the mantel again and 2. The stories were just as dark, violent and gritty as any Batman comic. 3. The Killing Joke 🤬 is brought up plenty of times in her run in those issues... If that upsets you take it up with DC and have them rewrite it from Cannon..its THE key essential aspect of her story in the DC Universe and Origin in The New 52.
  • lord nemesis
    lord nemesis You ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight? Members Posts: 11,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see what you're saying but it still seems like a lot of hubbub over a variant. If people don't like it they can just buy the issue with another cover. Art is art, sometimes people will find it offensive but that doesn't mean you have to basically censor it.
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see what you're saying but it still seems like a lot of hubbub over a variant. If people don't like it they can just buy the issue with another cover. Art is art, sometimes people will find it offensive but that doesn't mean you have to basically censor it.

    I agree and I wouldn't have bought it myself even though I buy Batgirl every month.

    At the same time this wasn't censorship it was self censorship brought on by the artist of the piece himself Rafael Albuqurque who did so simply because he sympathized with the people who were offended. DC just simply complied with his request.

    The same way people complain about people always looking for something to gripe about people could also complain about the people who don't get the facts straight and jump to brash conclusions whenever something like this goes down. It's a 2 way street.
  • Parallel
    Parallel not hereMembers, Writer Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like it tbh. I can see it not fitting in the "new direction" but personally I like the picture as I really enjoyed The Killing Joke and this is PERFECT for that.
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    nujerz84 wrote: »



    Just because Batgirl's new team has taken an ABC Family High School Teen Drama approach with her character from both a story-line and artistic standpoint (from looking like early 20's adult to now looking like she is 14 years old).

    It doesn't dismisses the first 34 issues where 1. She was constantly questioning and doubting her abilities taking up the mantel again and 2. The stories were just as dark, violent and gritty as any Batman comic. 3. The Killing Joke 🤬 is brought up plenty of times in her run in those issues... If that upsets you take it up with DC and have them rewrite it from Cannon.its THE key essential aspect of her story in the DC Universe and Origin in The New 52.

    The thing is...that it isn't.

    The key essential aspects of Barbara Gordon are:

    1) She's a very resourceful crimefighter with great leadership skills
    2) She's the daughter of the Gotham City Police Commisioner
    3) She has an on/off again relationship with Richard Grayson
    4) She's one of the pillars of the batfamily

    This "key essential aspect" you're talking about is so "essential" that she hadn't even dwelled on it or really overtly addressed it in story for over 15 years prior to the New 52 relaunch.

    On top of that those first 34 issues were

    1) So poorly received that as sales kept dipping month after month DC contemplated cancelling the book

    2) Anchored by a narrative that was so poorly received by people still reading the book after it had already lost thousands of readers that it got Gail Simone (who ironically was instrumental in helping Babs further evolve as a character a decade earlier) kicked off the book.

    It wasn't like it was a DC editorial mandate to have those TKJ references plaguing the current story of the book so there is no reason to take it up with them. It was a creative choice by Gail Simone and enough fans "took it up" by dropping the book to the point that it was slumping in sales every month that DC responded by removing her from the book altogether.

    Which is why we're were we are now with the book in terms of creative team and vision.


  • a.mann
    a.mann Members Posts: 19,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    don't follow like that....but did Marvel every actually put this on the stands?

    I recall them receiving mad blow back(no pun intended)
    spider_640.jpg
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ^ I believe it ended up getting cancelled

    But Marvel blamed "scheduling conflicts" and not the actual controversy in that instance.
  • nujerz84
    nujerz84 NJMembers Posts: 15,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Broddie wrote: »
    nujerz84 wrote: »



    Just because Batgirl's new team has taken an ABC Family High School Teen Drama approach with her character from both a story-line and artistic standpoint (from looking like early 20's adult to now looking like she is 14 years old).

    It doesn't dismisses the first 34 issues where 1. She was constantly questioning and doubting her abilities taking up the mantel again and 2. The stories were just as dark, violent and gritty as any Batman comic. 3. The Killing Joke 🤬 is brought up plenty of times in her run in those issues... If that upsets you take it up with DC and have them rewrite it from Cannon.its THE key essential aspect of her story in the DC Universe and Origin in The New 52.

    The thing is...that it isn't.

    The key essential aspects of Barbara Gordon are:

    1) She's a very resourceful crimefighter with great leadership skills
    2) She's the daughter of the Gotham City Police Commisioner
    3) She has an on/off again relationship with Richard Grayson
    4) She's one of the pillars of the batfamily

    This "key essential aspect" you're talking about is so "essential" that she hadn't even dwelled on it or really overtly addressed it in story for over 15 years prior to the New 52 relaunch.

    On top of that those first 34 issues were

    1) So poorly received that as sales kept dipping month after month DC contemplated cancelling the book

    2) Anchored by a narrative that was so poorly received by people still reading the book after it had already lost thousands of readers that it got Gail Simone (who ironically was instrumental in helping Babs further evolve as a character a decade earlier) kicked off the book.

    It wasn't like it was a DC editorial mandate to have those TKJ references plaguing the current story of the book so there is no reason to take it up with them. It was a creative choice by Gail Simone and enough fans "took it up" by dropping the book to the point that it was slumping in sales every month that DC responded by removing her from the book altogether.

    Which is why we're were we are now with the book in terms of creative team and vision.


    The New 52 has cancelled many titles since relaunch and will continue to do so ..the fact Batgirl is still in publication shows its still has enough support for it.

    Gail Simone run in those 34 issues was critically praised the fact its sales didn't reflect it further feeds my point that comic book fans are never satisfied and are always 🤬 about something.

    You being a prime example with the sneak dissing of the TKJ to expressed dislike of Scott and Greg work on Batman despite it being DC top selling comic and one of better critical acclaim titles in all of comics.

    In addition nothing you Said address the fact the 34 issues were dark violent and gritty which falls right in line with the Variant Cover, Gotham City and Joker Overrall.

    As for Batgirl


    1. Its is an essential part her story how else would she go from Batgirl to Wheelchair Bound Oracle without the events of TKJ without an entire re-write of her character?

    2. Those events were always mentioned in some form or another in various Bat related titles whenever Joker is was the main antagonist.

    3. Common sense says if she is now back to being Batgirl the events of TKJ is and would be one the major mental hurdles/obstacles to get over in addition to being rusty and doubting her abilities.

    All of which was done effectively well which brought a sense of realism similar to star athletes in sports coming back from injury or an individual getting life back over a traumatic event.

    It only natural and normal that those doubts would be brought up again when facing the Joker.


    Judging on what been said by Gail and the direction the title its now in DC obviously wanted a lighter teeny bopper tone.

    Which to me considering her history and its Gotham City makes no sense from a narrative standpoint.

    Its only 5 issues in quite frankly they been garbage in comparison.
  • gns
    gns Bleeding 24/7 Members Posts: 21,285 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dc fans just mad that Joker hit that.
    And they r lucky the artist is so cool.
    If they'd have threatened me I'd have dropped this for their feelings.......


    ........on second thought I aint posting 🤬 .
    I just googled batgirl and joker 🤬 and they r some pretty sick people out there drawing some crazy 🤬 ....geesh
  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Broddie
    Broddie just me and my bitch NYCMembers Posts: 11,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    nujerz84 wrote: »
    Broddie wrote: »
    nujerz84 wrote: »



    Just because Batgirl's new team has taken an ABC Family High School Teen Drama approach with her character from both a story-line and artistic standpoint (from looking like early 20's adult to now looking like she is 14 years old).

    It doesn't dismisses the first 34 issues where 1. She was constantly questioning and doubting her abilities taking up the mantel again and 2. The stories were just as dark, violent and gritty as any Batman comic. 3. The Killing Joke 🤬 is brought up plenty of times in her run in those issues... If that upsets you take it up with DC and have them rewrite it from Cannon.its THE key essential aspect of her story in the DC Universe and Origin in The New 52.

    The thing is...that it isn't.

    The key essential aspects of Barbara Gordon are:

    1) She's a very resourceful crimefighter with great leadership skills
    2) She's the daughter of the Gotham City Police Commisioner
    3) She has an on/off again relationship with Richard Grayson
    4) She's one of the pillars of the batfamily

    This "key essential aspect" you're talking about is so "essential" that she hadn't even dwelled on it or really overtly addressed it in story for over 15 years prior to the New 52 relaunch.

    On top of that those first 34 issues were

    1) So poorly received that as sales kept dipping month after month DC contemplated cancelling the book

    2) Anchored by a narrative that was so poorly received by people still reading the book after it had already lost thousands of readers that it got Gail Simone (who ironically was instrumental in helping Babs further evolve as a character a decade earlier) kicked off the book.

    It wasn't like it was a DC editorial mandate to have those TKJ references plaguing the current story of the book so there is no reason to take it up with them. It was a creative choice by Gail Simone and enough fans "took it up" by dropping the book to the point that it was slumping in sales every month that DC responded by removing her from the book altogether.

    Which is why we're were we are now with the book in terms of creative team and vision.


    The New 52 has cancelled many titles since relaunch and will continue to do so ..the fact Batgirl is still in publication shows its still has enough support for it.

    Gail Simone run in those 34 issues was critically praised the fact its sales didn't reflect itfurther feeds my point that comic book fans are never satisfied and are always 🤬 about something.

    You being a prime example with the sneak dissing of the TKJ to expressed dislike of Scott and Greg work on Batman despite it being DC top selling comic and one of better critical acclaim titles in all of comics.

    You need to check the official reviews for her individual issues and also the diamonds sales list dating back to september 2011 to present cause you're wrong on both counts. Maybe you're talking about reader reviews. Which you may be right because I'm not very familiar with those.

    It simply didn't get canned because Batbooks are given more leeway and a longer shelf life than the average book since the Batline is a cash cow for DC. With that said it also took books like Swamp Thing which was also underselling a long time to get canned as well. DC in general tends to give ongoings more of a chance for rebound than their direct competition does.

    I like TKJ well enough. Originally read it about 5 years after it came out and I have re-read it every other year since; but I could like something and still feel it's overrated as 🤬 . Hell even the man who wrote the book can't 🤬 stand it. At least I'm not that extreme.

    So what if Batman is a best selling book and is critically acclaimed that has nothing to do with the actual content in the book. My point is if that cover was a panel in one of their stories I don't think anyone would bat an eye because it actually fits the tone of the the storytelling they produce.

    In addition nothing you Said address the fact the 34 issues were dark violent and gritty which falls right in line with the Variant Cover, Gotham City and Joker Overrall.

    Again this is not a variant for a "dark violent and gritty" iteration; it's a variant for a book that is completely the reverse tonally and also has a major readership of teenage girls and younger audiences and not just man children and adults. The book's past has no consequence on it's present. They cater to different readerships.
    As for Batgirl


    1. Its is an essential part her story how else would she go from Batgirl to Wheelchair Bound Oracle without the events of TKJ without an entire re-write of her character?

    2. Those events were always mentioned in some form or another in various Bat related titles whenever Joker is was the main antagonist.

    3. Common sense says if she is now back to being Batgirl the events of TKJ is and would be one the major mental hurdles/obstacles to get over in addition to being rusty and doubting her abilities.

    All of which was done effectively well which brought a sense of realism similar to star athletes in sports coming back from injury or an individual getting life back over a traumatic event.

    It only natural and normal that those doubts would be brought up again when facing the Joker.

    1. You said "key essential part" there is a difference. The way you worded it earlier implies that it's the defining point of the character and that is false.

    2. Read Birds of Prey or Batgirl Vol. 1 or Vol. 2. The character has been beyond that moment in her life for a very very long time.

    3. Not necessarily because they could've easily made her Batgirl without even keeping TKJ as canon. She literally got a clean slate with the New 52.

    As for how effective it really was. That's quite subjective. I myself didn't find it effective at all. It was just convoluted and poorly integrated and resulted in me dropping the book like a bad habit until recently as soon as the first arc with the mirror guy was done.
    Which to me considering her history and its Gotham City makes no sense from a narrative standpoint.

    Then you obviously don't know her character or how varied Gotham City truly is.
  • Lou Cypher
    Lou Cypher Make Reasonable Choices. H. E. Double Hockey SticksMembers Posts: 52,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the cover is dope. First time i saw it, right away I thought about her getting shot and 🤬 though lol. But its a dope ass cover, really dark, shows the fear joker has instilled on his enemies.

    They're right at the same time though, i read a couple issues of batgirl and i would never expect to see panels like that in her book haha.
  • nujerz84
    nujerz84 NJMembers Posts: 15,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    You need to check the official reviews for her individual issues and also the diamonds sales list dating back to september 2011 to present cause you're wrong on both counts. Maybe you're talking about reader reviews. Which you may be right because I'm not very familiar with those.

    I'm talking critical reviews for the most part IGN, ComicBook Resources, Comic Vine, New York Times praised Gaill's work on the Batgirl Comics. In terms of sales I'm simply going by your own words when you stated that it was under performing and in danger of cancellation, which is why I said that despite getting good reviews the sales didn't reflect it.
    It simply didn't get canned because Batbooks are given more leeway and a longer shelf life than the average book since the Batline is a cash cow for DC. With that said it also took books like Swamp Thing which was also underselling a long time to get canned as well. DC in general tends to give ongoings more of a chance for rebound than their direct competition does.

    Batgirl and the Batfamily has a fanbase but books getting cancelled was destined to happen from the start with 52 titles rebooted in the first place.
    I like TKJ well enough. Originally read it about 5 years after it came out and I have re-read it every other year since; but I could like something and still feel it's overrated as 🤬 . Hell even the man who wrote the book can't 🤬 stand it. At least I'm not that extreme.

    You like it but you think its Overrated as 🤬 ... .

    2u59wgp.jpg



    Let keep it real if you really feel something/anything is overrated as 🤬 , you really don't like it and/or feel its not really that good.

    How ridiculous does this sound in any conversation " I Like Denzel Washington but he's overrated as 🤬 " "I like the Avengers movie but its overrated as 🤬 " etc etc c'mon man. Yes its huge difference from just saying overrated to saying its overrated as 🤬 .

    So what if Batman is a best selling book and is critically acclaimed that has nothing to do with the actual content in the book. My point is if that cover was a panel in one of their stories I don't think anyone would bat an eye because it actually fits the tone of the the storytelling they produce.

    You clearly missed the point I made, which is comic fans are always 🤬 and disliking something. As for content if the content sucked then it wouldn't be critically acclaimed would it?

    Again this is not a variant for a "dark violent and gritty" iteration; it's a variant for a book that is completely the reverse tonally and also has a major readership of teenage girls and younger audiences and not just man children and adults. The book's past has no consequence on it's present. They cater to different readerships

    So you just simply dismiss 38 issues (Batgirl 0, Batgirl Annual 1, Batgirl Annual 2 and Future's End) all done by Gail and her team over the course of 4 years as if they never happened?



    1. You said "key essential part" there is a difference. The way you worded it earlier implies that it's the defining point of the character and that is false.

    2. Read Birds of Prey or Batgirl Vol. 1 or Vol. 2. The character has been beyond that moment in her life for a very very long time.

    3. Not necessarily because they could've easily made her Batgirl without even keeping TKJ as canon. She literally got a clean slate with the New 52.

    As for how effective it really was. That's quite subjective. I myself didn't find it effective at all. It was just convoluted and poorly integrated and resulted in me dropping the book like a bad habit until recently as soon as the first arc with the mirror guy was done.

    1. It is a key essential part and defining point of her character...she stopped being Batgirl all together and help give birth to a whole new character Oracle..

    2. You mean this from My Collection::

    2r6mko5.jpg

    Or do you mean Pre New 52?? If its the former then maybe you should take your own advice...Having Nightmares over the incident... Freezing the first time gun point at her waist..etc dealing with the events of that incident are central themes throughout.


    3.This is a useless and irrelevant point that is not dealing with the facts of the character...TKJ is cannon therefore dealing with hypothetical's of what they could do to her character is moot point. Everyone in DC pretty much got a clean slate.


    4. If overcoming and dealing with mental struggles/hurdles regarding a terrible traumatic event, a narrative that gives a sense of realism to the character was that difficult to follow despite making sense in the storyline, then IDK what to tell you.


    And the bottom line is this 1. Nothing Is Wrong with the Cover.. 2. Your Claims of self censorship doesn't hold water as it doesn't occur if some fans and feminist on twitter didn't make a big stink over it. 3. Majority Females and Males of the comic community online think pulling the cover is 🤬 .





  • CashmoneyDux
    CashmoneyDux Members Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    a.mann wrote: »
    don't follow like that....but did Marvel every actually put this on the stands?

    I recall them receiving mad blow back(no pun intended)
    spider_640.jpg

    I know this is just a drawing but damn
  • Maximus Rex
    Maximus Rex Pulchritudo in Conspectu Regis The EmpreyanMembers Posts: 6,355 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ironically, if the Joker was tonguing down some dude on the cover that would have been fine.
    Broddie wrote: »
    Originally read it about 5 years after it came out and I have re-read it every other year since;

    Did the Joker 🤬 Barbara and are in the Morrison school of thought that The Batman killed Mr. J at the end of The Killing Joke?