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How Long Do You Think Slavery Would've Lasted Had the Civil War Gone the Other Way

Stiff
Stiff Legion of Trill BGMembers Posts: 7,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 2015 in The Social Lounge
All of this talk about the Confederate flag got me thinking. If the Confederate States had succeeded in breaking away and gaining independence from the Union…and then successfully gained international recognition…how long do you think it would have been before chattel slavery would have finally been abolished in the CSA?

Also, what would the situation have evolved into
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Comments

  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It would have continued among the upper class of whites up until at least the 1930's.

    Slavery among the rich in the south wasn't just about money it was a cultural institution of the upper class
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brilliant thread idea this should be in the g&s where it could get more traffic
  • Stiff
    Stiff Legion of Trill BG Members Posts: 7,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    It would have continued among the upper class of whites up until at least the 1930's.

    Slavery among the rich in the south wasn't just about money it was a cultural institution of the upper class

    1930 seems so late. I could see it remaining that late as a status symbol and not anymore being a practical institution tho.

    I would've put it in g&s but it did just seem like more of a social lounge topic since it's more about history
  • StillFaggyAF
    StillFaggyAF Queer LGBT CommunityMembers Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees
  • StillFaggyAF
    StillFaggyAF Queer LGBT CommunityMembers Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭
    plus slavery would have ceased to be economic profitable (see Cuba and Brazil)
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AggyAF wrote: »
    plus slavery would have ceased to be economic profitable (see Cuba and Brazil)

    It wasn't just about money in the south. Among the white southern elite owning a slave was more than financial
  • Will Munny
    Will Munny Eatin pussy and kickin ass Members Posts: 30,199 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Slavery was enshrined as a constitutional right in the CSA constitution, and over turning that would have taken like a 2/3 vote. Seeing how ass backwards the south still remained to be, slavery probably would have went well into the 1940s or 50s
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.
  • StillFaggyAF
    StillFaggyAF Queer LGBT CommunityMembers Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.

    not the majority. you really think the slaves in the South would be the only slave population to not rise up (which they did during the Civil War) ?
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.

    not the majority. you really think the slaves in the South would be the only slave population to not rise up (which they did during the Civil War) ?

    it does not have to be the majority a tiny minority is all that would be needed for slavery to continue well pass it's economic efficiency. remember the premise of the thread. As the csa continued they would have had no choice but to free most of the slaves anyway but a total abolishment would have taken decades
  • StillFaggyAF
    StillFaggyAF Queer LGBT CommunityMembers Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.

    not the majority. you really think the slaves in the South would be the only slave population to not rise up (which they did during the Civil War) ?

    it does not have to be the majority a tiny minority is all that would be needed for slavery to continue well pass it's economic efficiency. remember the premise of the thread. As the csa continued they would have had no choice but to free most of the slaves anyway but a total abolishment would have taken decades

    there was really never a chance for the Confederate states but to go along with the premise, well the only way CSA would have been able to successfully win and survive would have been with the support of the UK where slavery ended in the 1830s. UK would have pressured them to end slavery. and even if they didn't, the CSA wouldn't be able to (and couldn't IRL) stop the flow of slaves walking over into the North, even if the CSA and USA had some agreement to repatriate fugitive slaves, the North American continent is vast and there were many unclaimed territories that former slaves could go to. also, something like 30-50% of the South was slaves at the time so if 30-50% are in revolt, i don't see how the institution of slavery would have survived even if a large minority still wanted to be slaves (which they didn't). The CSA was in shambles during and after the war and would have to fight an insurgency by slaves

    In addition, slaves could have organized and gotten support from outside nations (US, Latin American/Caribbean countries, possibly France etc)

    I just don't see a case where the CSA survives unless it became a protectorate/proxy state of the UK and if that was the case it would end slavery too
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.

    not the majority. you really think the slaves in the South would be the only slave population to not rise up (which they did during the Civil War) ?

    it does not have to be the majority a tiny minority is all that would be needed for slavery to continue well pass it's economic efficiency. remember the premise of the thread. As the csa continued they would have had no choice but to free most of the slaves anyway but a total abolishment would have taken decades

    there was really never a chance for the Confederate states but to go along with the premise, well the only way CSA would have been able to successfully win and survive would have been with the support of the UK where slavery ended in the 1830s. UK would have pressured them to end slavery. and even if they didn't, the CSA wouldn't be able to (and couldn't IRL) stop the flow of slaves walking over into the North, even if the CSA and USA had some agreement to repatriate fugitive slaves, the North American continent is vast and there were many unclaimed territories that former slaves could go to. also, something like 30-50% of the South was slaves at the time so if 30-50% are in revolt, i don't see how the institution of slavery would have survived even if a large minority still wanted to be slaves (which they didn't). The CSA was in shambles during and after the war and would have to fight an insurgency by slaves

    In addition, slaves could have organized and gotten support from outside nations (US, Latin American/Caribbean countries, possibly France etc)

    I just don't see a case where the CSA survives unless it became a protectorate/proxy state of the UK and if that was the case it would end slavery too

    I think you are underestimating how much these people wanted there slaves. If the csa had won at Gettysburg or Manassas as the confederates they called it , then the csa could very well have survived. Brazil continued slavery for a long time after it ended in both the UK and America I see NO reason why the csa would have bowed to pressure from the UK. Especially after fighting a 🤬 war to keep their slaves.

    Frankly any slave revolt in the United states was doomed to failure. Geographical America is not like Haiti, Jamaica or Brazil there's no jungle mountains to hide in and the only nation willing to help would have been Haiti. where are the slaves in the getting the guns,bullets, and medicine from.

    I don't have any faith in France or the UK helping slaves and blacks running to the west would surely die being in unfamiliar territory surrounded by native people who also didn't necessarily like us or want us on their land.
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 On the shoulders of Giants and Elders in history UniverseMembers Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Who knows there was black folks enslaved in Mississippi until the 1970s. I mean think about our parents generation.

    But the Geechee were fighting and getting other enslaved to fight back so who knows.
  • Stiff
    Stiff Legion of Trill BG Members Posts: 7,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Who knows there was black folks enslaved in Mississippi until the 1970s. I mean think about our parents generation.

    But the Geechee were fighting and getting other enslaved to fight back so who knows.

    Huh
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    Probably around the time Brazil ended slavery, 1880s.....I don't think slavery in the Confederate South would have lasted much longer then that, too many Blacks in the south would see their northern and western brethren free and revolts would have been almost non-stop
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stiff wrote: »
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Who knows there was black folks enslaved in Mississippi until the 1970s. I mean think about our parents generation.

    But the Geechee were fighting and getting other enslaved to fight back so who knows.

    Huh

    I THINK he means the low paying work of sharecropping but that's not really slavery.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you guys are putting to much stock in slave revolt ending slavery most slave revolts failed for good reasons.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.

    not the majority. you really think the slaves in the South would be the only slave population to not rise up (which they did during the Civil War) ?

    it does not have to be the majority a tiny minority is all that would be needed for slavery to continue well pass it's economic efficiency. remember the premise of the thread. As the csa continued they would have had no choice but to free most of the slaves anyway but a total abolishment would have taken decades

    there was really never a chance for the Confederate states but to go along with the premise, well the only way CSA would have been able to successfully win and survive would have been with the support of the UK where slavery ended in the 1830s. UK would have pressured them to end slavery. and even if they didn't, the CSA wouldn't be able to (and couldn't IRL) stop the flow of slaves walking over into the North, even if the CSA and USA had some agreement to repatriate fugitive slaves, the North American continent is vast and there were many unclaimed territories that former slaves could go to. also, something like 30-50% of the South was slaves at the time so if 30-50% are in revolt, i don't see how the institution of slavery would have survived even if a large minority still wanted to be slaves (which they didn't). The CSA was in shambles during and after the war and would have to fight an insurgency by slaves

    In addition, slaves could have organized and gotten support from outside nations (US, Latin American/Caribbean countries, possibly France etc)

    I just don't see a case where the CSA survives unless it became a protectorate/proxy state of the UK and if that was the case it would end slavery too

    This is what I believe, the Confederacy would not have been able to handle the increasing amount of slave rebellions and the Union and its allies working against the Confederacy, even if the CSA won, they would have been devastated financially and infrastructure wise. Especially with so many Blacks being free in the north and parts of the midwest after 1863, I don't think the CSA would have handled the pressure.

    But I do think there's a chance slavery could have lasted until the early 1900s there.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mass slavery definitely would have ended but not due to slave revolts. All slave revolts in America failed so I don't see where you guys are getting the historical precedence for your speculations on the southern insistution of slavery being totally abolished.

    Economic forces would have made slavery too expensive and wasteful so it would have ended anyway. Why feed and house a field slave when you can just buy a tractor??? But had the csa won I wouldn't put it pass the confederates, after the civil war they would simply have culled the slave population reducing it's population to a more manageable level.

    Also depending on when the csa wins the war, the damage to their infrastructure could have been negligible.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mass slavery would have ended thus ending a lot of the slaves drive to fight to end slavery.

    The rich whites in the csa were holding on to their house and sex slaves of that I am sure especially since some house 🤬 liked being slaves
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    zzombie wrote: »
    Mass slavery definitely would have ended but not due to slave revolts. All slave revolts in America failed so I don't see where you guys are getting the historical precedence for your speculations on the southern insistution of slavery being totally abolished.

    Economic forces would have made slavery too expensive and wasteful so it would have ended anyway. Why feed and house a field slave when you can just buy a tractor??? But had the csa won I wouldn't put it pass the confederates, after the civil war they would simply have culled the slave population reducing it's population to a more manageable level.

    Also depending on when the csa wins the war, the damage to their infrastructure could have been negligible.

    You are probably right that the Confederacy would have cut down its slave population to make it a more manageable amount, after all the soldiers they lost in the Civil War, they would have had no choice. It's why I think slavery would have still had a good run there, till the 1880s or 1890s. Probably 1890s.
  • The_Jackal
    The_Jackal Members Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dont think it would have lasted too much longer. Maybe 1920 1930s. Segregation though is a better question.
  • StillFaggyAF
    StillFaggyAF Queer LGBT CommunityMembers Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.

    not the majority. you really think the slaves in the South would be the only slave population to not rise up (which they did during the Civil War) ?

    it does not have to be the majority a tiny minority is all that would be needed for slavery to continue well pass it's economic efficiency. remember the premise of the thread. As the csa continued they would have had no choice but to free most of the slaves anyway but a total abolishment would have taken decades

    there was really never a chance for the Confederate states but to go along with the premise, well the only way CSA would have been able to successfully win and survive would have been with the support of the UK where slavery ended in the 1830s. UK would have pressured them to end slavery. and even if they didn't, the CSA wouldn't be able to (and couldn't IRL) stop the flow of slaves walking over into the North, even if the CSA and USA had some agreement to repatriate fugitive slaves, the North American continent is vast and there were many unclaimed territories that former slaves could go to. also, something like 30-50% of the South was slaves at the time so if 30-50% are in revolt, i don't see how the institution of slavery would have survived even if a large minority still wanted to be slaves (which they didn't). The CSA was in shambles during and after the war and would have to fight an insurgency by slaves

    In addition, slaves could have organized and gotten support from outside nations (US, Latin American/Caribbean countries, possibly France etc)

    I just don't see a case where the CSA survives unless it became a protectorate/proxy state of the UK and if that was the case it would end slavery too

    I think you are underestimating how much these people wanted there slaves. If the csa had won at Gettysburg or Manassas as the confederates they called it , then the csa could very well have survived. Brazil continued slavery for a long time after it ended in both the UK and America I see NO reason why the csa would have bowed to pressure from the UK. Especially after fighting a 🤬 war to keep their slaves.

    Frankly any slave revolt in the United states was doomed to failure. Geographical America is not like Haiti, Jamaica or Brazil there's no jungle mountains to hide in and the only nation willing to help would have been Haiti. where are the slaves in the getting the guns,bullets, and medicine from.

    I don't have any faith in France or the UK helping slaves and blacks running to the west would surely die being in unfamiliar territory surrounded by native people who also didn't necessarily like us or want us on their land.

    the Appalachian Mountains run through the south and have long been a hiding spot for slaves and natives fleeing whites

    i think your estimate of slavery ending in 1930s and your opinion that slave revolts wouldn't happen (they did) in the US is very pessimistic ,frankly i think you underestimate the American slave population or think they were all scared 🤬 that sat on the plantations while the South fought the North. remember in the US, there was barely any manumission or a free black/colored population like in the Caribbean/South America so blacks would have no chance but to fight. by the end of the Civil War, plantation output damn near stopped with slaves abandoning and leaving. by the 1870s, the first northern/western migration waves had started

    and its almost 100% likely the UK would pressure the South to give up slavery within a decade because a) popular opinion b)chattel slavery was becoming archaic; slavery provided too much competition to the British cotton industry
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    AggyAF wrote: »
    people love to forget that during the civil war, slaves rose up en masse. blacks didn't just toil on the plantations while whitey fought yankees

    And after slavery ended many slaves still wanted to serve their masters.

    not the majority. you really think the slaves in the South would be the only slave population to not rise up (which they did during the Civil War) ?

    it does not have to be the majority a tiny minority is all that would be needed for slavery to continue well pass it's economic efficiency. remember the premise of the thread. As the csa continued they would have had no choice but to free most of the slaves anyway but a total abolishment would have taken decades

    there was really never a chance for the Confederate states but to go along with the premise, well the only way CSA would have been able to successfully win and survive would have been with the support of the UK where slavery ended in the 1830s. UK would have pressured them to end slavery. and even if they didn't, the CSA wouldn't be able to (and couldn't IRL) stop the flow of slaves walking over into the North, even if the CSA and USA had some agreement to repatriate fugitive slaves, the North American continent is vast and there were many unclaimed territories that former slaves could go to. also, something like 30-50% of the South was slaves at the time so if 30-50% are in revolt, i don't see how the institution of slavery would have survived even if a large minority still wanted to be slaves (which they didn't). The CSA was in shambles during and after the war and would have to fight an insurgency by slaves

    In addition, slaves could have organized and gotten support from outside nations (US, Latin American/Caribbean countries, possibly France etc)

    I just don't see a case where the CSA survives unless it became a protectorate/proxy state of the UK and if that was the case it would end slavery too

    I think you are underestimating how much these people wanted there slaves. If the csa had won at Gettysburg or Manassas as the confederates they called it , then the csa could very well have survived. Brazil continued slavery for a long time after it ended in both the UK and America I see NO reason why the csa would have bowed to pressure from the UK. Especially after fighting a 🤬 war to keep their slaves.

    Frankly any slave revolt in the United states was doomed to failure. Geographical America is not like Haiti, Jamaica or Brazil there's no jungle mountains to hide in and the only nation willing to help would have been Haiti. where are the slaves in the getting the guns,bullets, and medicine from.

    I don't have any faith in France or the UK helping slaves and blacks running to the west would surely die being in unfamiliar territory surrounded by native people who also didn't necessarily like us or want us on their land.

    the Appalachian Mountains run through the south and have long been a hiding spot for slaves and natives fleeing whites

    i think your estimate of slavery ending in 1930s and your opinion that slave revolts wouldnt happen (they did) in the US is very pessimistic ,frankly i think you underestimate the American slave population or think they were all scared 🤬 that sat on the plantations while the South fought the North. remember in the US, there was barely any manumission or a free black/colored population like in the Caribbean/South America so blacks would have no chance but to fight.

    and its almost 100% likely the UK would pressure the South to give up slavery within a decade because a) popular opinion b)chattel slavery was becoming archaic; slavery provided too much competition to the British cotton industry

    The appalachian mountains provided an escape route to the north, but for a successful slave revolt to be sustained into a full blow rebellion the geography of the place has to be able to provide substance for a population while under pressure.

    For example my ancestors in jamaica and the communities of escaped slaves in places like brazil were able to be successful only because the places where we hid also allowed for us to live there and have a some what stable population. Appalachia snows and the land is not as fruitful nor is it as easy to hide in when compared to a mountainous jungle in brazil, jamaica or suriname.

    i never said slave revolts would not happen within north america, they did happen and pretty much they all failed, so if the csa won i am sure there would have been more revolts but they would have failed because they had a track record of failure. The uk would not have pressured the csa at all they did not pressure brazil or france and french slavery persisted in some of their colonies after the civil war in america had been finished. And even if the uk pressured the csa i doubt the confederates would have given a 🤬 .

    these people really really wanted their slaves and they had plans to expand it into mexico and other areas of southern america. these people were not going to just let go of slavery because of pressure from england

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Circle_(proposed_country)
  • Stiff
    Stiff Legion of Trill BG Members Posts: 7,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The_Jackal wrote: »
    I dont think it would have lasted too much longer. Maybe 1920 1930s. Segregation though is a better question.

    Lol to the 1920s or 30s isn't much longer to you?

    If Apartheid could last until the 90s in South Africa I could see Jim Crow easily going just as long in an independent Confederate States of America

    I think if the CSA would have survived that it would have also slowed the freeing of Africa from colonialism as well…if I'm not mistaken the USA was beginning to put pressure on UK and France to free it's colonies. A USA divided wouldn't have had as much strength to impose its wills/values on the European countries.
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