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Why do people call the devil a "thief, liar, and murderer"?

soul rattler
soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval CommandHOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 2015 in The Social Lounge
It's funny how the same people indoctrinated by biblical lore are unable to point to one instance in which the supposed Father of Lies has ever actually lied.

A thief? The same people who sing "what 🤬 has for me, it is for me" and mindlessly exclaim "🤬 giveth 🤬 taketh away" can't explain how the devil could ever possibly steal anything.

Murderer? Which immortal being has control over life and death and inspires nations to go to war?

You Christians are horribly confused. You give glory to your 🤬 for your success and blame the devil for your failures, all the while claiming to have free will.
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Comments

  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's funny how the same people indoctrinated by biblical lore are unable to point to one instance in which the supposed Father of Lies has ever actually lied.

    A thief? The same people who sing "what 🤬 has for me, it is for me" and mindlessly exclaim "🤬 giveth 🤬 taketh away" can't explain how the devil could ever possibly steal anything.

    Murderer? Which immortal being has control over life and death and inspires nations to go to war?

    You Christians are horribly confused. You give glory to your 🤬 for your success and blame the devil for your failures, all the while claiming to have free will.

    The devil lies in the garden.

    thereby causing sin to be cast into man thereby creating the potential for murder, 🤬 and all sort of evil.

    and any christian that blames the devil for them participating in those sins is in error.
  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    ......................
  • phukkyou2
    phukkyou2 Members Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭✭
    The Tree Of Knowledge is a dangerous thing. Word to Nuclear Weapon Engineers and Hookers
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    It's funny how the same people indoctrinated by biblical lore are unable to point to one instance in which the supposed Father of Lies has ever actually lied.

    A thief? The same people who sing "what 🤬 has for me, it is for me" and mindlessly exclaim "🤬 giveth 🤬 taketh away" can't explain how the devil could ever possibly steal anything.

    Murderer? Which immortal being has control over life and death and inspires nations to go to war?

    You Christians are horribly confused. You give glory to your 🤬 for your success and blame the devil for your failures, all the while claiming to have free will.

    The devil lies in the garden.

    thereby causing sin to be cast into man thereby creating the potential for murder, 🤬 and all sort of evil.

    and any christian that blames the devil for them participating in those sins is in error.


    family-feud-x.jpg

    **Buzzer sound**

    WROOOOONG. The Bible 🤬 admits to creating evil/calamity. TRY AGAIN

    Calamity is not evil. I've had this discussion with you at least twice already you hard headed idiot.

    There is a significant difference between evil and calamity. Evil is wickedness for wickedness sake it's pain and suffering created for no other intention other than to destroy while bringing pleasure to the one who creates it.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    He told eve that if she at the fruit she would not certainly die and that she I.e we would know the difference between good and evil. This first statememt was a total lie and the second a half truth.
  • phukkyou2
    phukkyou2 Members Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    He told eve that if she at the fruit she would not certainly die and that she I.e we would know the difference between good and evil. This first statememt was a total lie and the second a half truth.

    But we all actually DO know the difference between good & evil. We learn that by 5 at the latest.


    That doesn't even make any sense. It's talked about everywhere everyday
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    phukkyou2 wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    He told eve that if she at the fruit she would not certainly die and that she I.e we would know the difference between good and evil. This first statememt was a total lie and the second a half truth.

    But we all actually DO know the difference between good & evil. We learn that by 5 at the latest.


    That doesn't even make any sense. It's talked about everywhere everyday

    No we don't because some people have no consciousness of good or evil they don't know the difference.

    We call these people psychopaths.

    And the knowledge of what is" good and evil" refers to deeper understanding, normal children know wrong from right but a knowledge of 🤬 and evil is a totally different matter.
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    zzombie wrote: »
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    He told eve that if she at the fruit she would not certainly die and that she I.e we would know the difference between good and evil. This first statememt was a total lie and the second a half truth.

    There's a bit of trickery in the wording..

    "if I eat/touch this fruit, 🤬 said I will die"

    "no you won't" and to an extent, he was right, she didn't die, she was cursed and although the story goes her curse included death, she truly didn't "die" after touching or eating the fruit

    and they did know good and bad, 🤬 said so himself

    But I find it interesting now that I think about it..

    If Adam and Eve had no consciousness of good/bad, such as psychopaths do today, would that make them psychopaths as well? Is it a bad thing to not know good from bad? Or was it a good thing they ate the fruit to have this knowledge?

  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VIBE wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    He told eve that if she at the fruit she would not certainly die and that she I.e we would know the difference between good and evil. This first statememt was a total lie and the second a half truth.

    There's a bit of trickery in the wording..

    "if I eat/touch this fruit, 🤬 said I will die"

    "no you won't" and to an extent, he was right, she didn't die, she was cursed and although the story goes her curse included death, she truly didn't "die" after touching or eating the fruit

    and they did know good and bad, 🤬 said so himself

    But I find it interesting now that I think about it..

    If Adam and Eve had no consciousness of good/bad, such as psychopaths do today, would that make them psychopaths as well? Is it a bad thing to not know good from bad? Or was it a good thing they ate the fruit to have this knowledge?

    Of course she died after eating the fruit it just took a long time.

    Adam and eve knew right from wrong. the knowledge of good and evil is not quite the same thing.

    A true psychopath doesn't know right from wrong but can have or not have the knowledge of good and evil.
  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    He told eve that if she at the fruit she would not certainly die and that she I.e we would know the difference between good and evil. This first statememt was a total lie and the second a half truth.

    1. Not only did she not immediately physically die, but, even as you have admitted , nobody ever really dies because of their souls and 🤬 going to a different plane of existence.

    2. Eating the fruit enabled them to see their nakedness and ultimately empower their descendants to know right from wrong. The mental instability of men is completely the doing of G-d.

    3. Now that everyone has struck down your first example of the devil lying, what else you got?
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    They didn't know right from wrong. They just knew what was said.

    "Do not eat from this tree"

    Her response was more of a confused response to the serpent.

    It's like a child. They know what they're told but they don't truly have a grasp on what's really "right and wrong".

    If I tell my child not to do something but someone else convinces them otherwise because of certain "perks", then it sounds more enticing. They don't fully understand what the consequences are.

    🤬 was explicit, "do not eat from the tree or you will certainly die" but death doesn't exist at this point, right? Death only entered the world after Adam and Eve sinned, right? So how did Adam understand what death was?

    A child doesn't know what a fire does to you. A two year old will reach out for it only to get burnt/hurt, and will then understand what it is.

    It doesn't seem like anything was explained, just told.

    Right and wrong do not exist at this point. It may to 🤬 , but to his creation it doesn't.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    What lie was told in the garden of Eden?

    He told eve that if she at the fruit she would not certainly die and that she I.e we would know the difference between good and evil. This first statememt was a total lie and the second a half truth.

    1. Not only did she not immediately physically die, but, even as you have admitted , nobody ever really dies because of their souls and 🤬 going to a different plane of existence.

    2. Eating the fruit enabled them to see their nakedness and ultimately empower their descendants to know right from wrong. The mental instability of men is completely the doing of G-d.

    3. Now that everyone has struck down your first example of the devil lying, what else you got?

    you really are of your father satan.

    1. In other threads i have said no one ever really dies BUT I WAS SPEAKING from 🤬 's perspective on mortal "death" but yes from our perspective people really do die. SO WHEN the devil told eve she would not die he clearly lied.

    2. Adam and eve already knew right from wrong

    3. you have struck down nothing and once again you show your ignorance.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    VIBE wrote: »
    They didn't know right from wrong. They just knew what was said.

    "Do not eat from this tree"

    Her response was more of a confused response to the serpent.

    It's like a child. They know what they're told but they don't truly have a grasp on what's really "right and wrong".

    If I tell my child not to do something but someone else convinces them otherwise because of certain "perks", then it sounds more enticing. They don't fully understand what the consequences are.

    🤬 was explicit, "do not eat from the tree or you will certainly die" but death doesn't exist at this point, right? Death only entered the world after Adam and Eve sinned, right? So how did Adam understand what death was?

    A child doesn't know what a fire does to you. A two year old will reach out for it only to get burnt/hurt, and will then understand what it is.

    It doesn't seem like anything was explained, just told.

    Right and wrong do not exist at this point. It may to 🤬 , but to his creation it doesn't.

    Have you ever heard of the phrase adam walked with 🤬 DO YOU understand it's implication??? while adam and eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil they were not babies like you are trying to make them out to be. They had a different nature from us before the fall but there is nothing to indicate that they were child like.

    on the contrary there is more substance to them being created as fully formed adults of some sort both physically and mentally.

    They understood language as 🤬 spoke to them (Gen 1:28 , 2:15-17)
    They understood sexual reproduction to multiply on the earth (Gen 1:28)
    They were capable of dominating the animals (Gen 1:28)
    they were capable of harvesting and eating from the plants (Gen 1:29)

    Made fully capable of understanding the special relation he had to the woman (Gen 2:23)

    You cannot have all of the attributes adam and eve had if you are like a 4 year old
  • VIBE
    VIBE Members Posts: 54,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not saying they were children and I'm not saying they were incapable.

    Those thing exist, those are easily learned.

    I'm speaking on the concept of death.

    Death came into the world due to sin. Before that, death doesn't exist.

    How can Adam truly grasp the concept of death when it doesn't exist?

    I compare it to the child not knowing what hot is, and that child testing the waters to learn what hot is. Not to the child itself, but to the idea of not fully understanding a consequence.

    Eve told the serpent "but I was told.." and didn't show she actually understood consequences, again, those don't even exist here.

    The serpent didn't actually lie, per say. He was very sly in his wording. Careful to persuade them.

    The fact they were ashamed and hid also shows they didn't know or understand what would happen. They knew they 🤬 up immediately after because now, biblically speaking, good/evil, right/wrong have truly entered the world. Meaning, beforehand, it didn't exist and they knew nothing about it. Which is exactly why it's called the "tree of knowledge".

    So there's a contridiction. They did something they did not know what actually wrong; that would have actual consequence to their lives (and the lives after theirs).

    They were manipulated by 🤬 through lies (withholding information).

    At the end of the day, though, regardless, this is all 🤬 's grand plan; his will. So if his will shall be done, then how does none of this make 🤬 the bad guy? He purposely manipulated the situation, as he did with many others in the bible (the pharaoh is a huge one), for his own selfish reasons.




    It's almost like when 🤬 and the devil faced off in heaven, the devil actually won, taking 🤬 's spot, then banished 🤬 to "hell" and 🤬 is just simply the devil, which is why the devil (🤬 ) is trying to get people to not listen.

    ^would make for the greatest plot twist in history..
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    VIBE wrote: »
    I'm not saying they were children and I'm not saying they were incapable.

    Those thing exist, those are easily learned.

    I'm speaking on the concept of death.

    Death came into the world due to sin. Before that, death doesn't exist.

    How can Adam truly grasp the concept of death when it doesn't exist?



    I compare it to the child not knowing what hot is, and that child testing the waters to learn what hot is. Not to the child itself, but to the idea of not fully understanding a consequence.

    Eve told the serpent "but I was told.." and didn't show she actually understood consequences, again, those don't even exist here.

    The serpent didn't actually lie, per say. He was very sly in his wording. Careful to persuade them.

    The fact they were ashamed and hid also shows they didn't know or understand what would happen. They knew they 🤬 up immediately after because now, biblically speaking, good/evil, right/wrong have truly entered the world. Meaning, beforehand, it didn't exist and they knew nothing about it. Which is exactly why it's called the "tree of knowledge".

    So there's a contridiction. They did something they did not know what actually wrong; that would have actual consequence to their lives (and the lives after theirs).

    They were manipulated by 🤬 through lies (withholding information).

    At the end of the day, though, regardless, this is all 🤬 's grand plan; his will. So if his will shall be done, then how does none of this make 🤬 the bad guy? He purposely manipulated the situation, as he did with many others in the bible (the pharaoh is a huge one), for his own selfish reasons.

    It's almost like when 🤬 and the devil faced off in heaven, the devil actually won, taking 🤬 's spot, then banished 🤬 to "hell" and 🤬 is just simply the devil, which is why the devil (🤬 ) is trying to get people to not listen.

    ^would make for the greatest plot twist in history..

    they did not fully grasp it but it is easy to infer that he knew of it because adam walked with 🤬 meaning he had a close relationship with the deity and therefore had access to great understanding just like every other man that came after him who also walked with 🤬 , it's not the attainment of that knowledge that made adam fall, it was the willfull disobdeince. if you are just speaking of the concept of death period then no it was not made actualized but they knew of it. And in any case their is nothing in genesis that states that death did not exist among animals in the garden of eden.

    they hid from 🤬 because now instead of just knowing good and evil they had intimate knowledge of evil and the consequece of evil is death. it's like being pre-teen and talking sexual education class, now you know everything about sex but it's all intellectual until you actual have sex then you have knowledge of it a way that counts.

    AND as FOR the serpent he lied he tricked them with a lie because eve did eventually die so what he said to her was a lie. there is no way to get around that.

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    zzombie wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    It's funny how the same people indoctrinated by biblical lore are unable to point to one instance in which the supposed Father of Lies has ever actually lied.

    A thief? The same people who sing "what 🤬 has for me, it is for me" and mindlessly exclaim "🤬 giveth 🤬 taketh away" can't explain how the devil could ever possibly steal anything.

    Murderer? Which immortal being has control over life and death and inspires nations to go to war?

    You Christians are horribly confused. You give glory to your 🤬 for your success and blame the devil for your failures, all the while claiming to have free will.

    The devil lies in the garden.

    thereby causing sin to be cast into man thereby creating the potential for murder, 🤬 and all sort of evil.

    and any christian that blames the devil for them participating in those sins is in error.


    family-feud-x.jpg

    **Buzzer sound**

    WROOOOONG. The Bible 🤬 admits to creating evil/calamity. TRY AGAIN

    Calamity is not evil. I've had this discussion with you at least twice already you hard headed idiot.

    There is a significant difference between evil and calamity. Evil is wickedness for wickedness sake it's pain and suffering created for no other intention other than to destroy while bringing pleasure to the one who creates it.

    Calamity is still evil fool! Misfortune and horror are all bad things 🤬 . 🤬 and genocides are all evil things but that's all a part of calamity too. Why create calamity if the Bible 🤬 , who is all knowing and seeing allegedly, knows what was gonna happen with that.

    Don't get me started on what humans have done with "calamity", why create it in the first place. A 🤬 like yours that creates misfortune and all the horrible things that calamity bring has to be evil, and for your Bible 🤬 to admit that is beyond ridiculous.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/calamity

    calamity

    noun ca·lam·i·ty \kə-ˈla-mə-tē\

    : an event that causes great harm and suffering
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    By the Bible 🤬 admitting it created calamity, it admits to creating the following:

    genocide
    kidnapping
    rapes
    incurabale diseases
    earthquakes that 🤬 hundreds of thousands
    burn victims
    amputees
    air plane crashes
    people born with Cerebral Palsy
    babies born without eyes or outer skin
    etc

    @zombie

    Am I wrong? The Bible 🤬 , after all, admits to CREATING MISFORTUNE and acts that do others great harm.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    zzombie wrote: »
    It's funny how the same people indoctrinated by biblical lore are unable to point to one instance in which the supposed Father of Lies has ever actually lied.

    A thief? The same people who sing "what 🤬 has for me, it is for me" and mindlessly exclaim "🤬 giveth 🤬 taketh away" can't explain how the devil could ever possibly steal anything.

    Murderer? Which immortal being has control over life and death and inspires nations to go to war?

    You Christians are horribly confused. You give glory to your 🤬 for your success and blame the devil for your failures, all the while claiming to have free will.

    The devil lies in the garden.

    thereby causing sin to be cast into man thereby creating the potential for murder, 🤬 and all sort of evil.

    and any christian that blames the devil for them participating in those sins is in error.


    family-feud-x.jpg

    **Buzzer sound**

    WROOOOONG. The Bible 🤬 admits to creating evil/calamity. TRY AGAIN

    Calamity is not evil. I've had this discussion with you at least twice already you hard headed idiot.

    There is a significant difference between evil and calamity. Evil is wickedness for wickedness sake it's pain and suffering created for no other intention other than to destroy while bringing pleasure to the one who creates it.

    Calamity is still evil fool! Misfortune and horror are all bad things 🤬 . 🤬 and genocides are all evil things but that's all a part of calamity too. Why create calamity if the Bible 🤬 , who is all knowing and seeing allegedly, knows what was gonna happen with that.

    Don't get me started on what humans have done with "calamity", why create it in the first place. A 🤬 like yours that creates misfortune and all the horrible things that calamity bring has to be evil, and for your Bible 🤬 to admit that is beyond ridiculous.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/calamity

    calamity

    noun ca·lam·i·ty \kə-ˈla-mə-tē\

    : an event that causes great harm and suffering

    You are the fool my friend, you gave the dictionary definition of EVIL but we are talking about religion and the religious definition of evil is not quite the same thing as we use in common language. IN your ignorant mind and i call you ignorant respectfully, you seem to think that pain, death and dying are evil you think that because something is bad or painful then it's evil but strictly religiously speaking this is not so.

    To you A beneficent 🤬 maximizes pleasure and minimizes suffering. But any good parent or for that matter any bodybuilder will tell you that sometimes you have to maximize suffering and minimize pleasure to attain a beneficent outcome.

    let me say it again death,pain, suffering etc etc etc are not necessarily Evil.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    By the Bible 🤬 admitting it created calamity, it admits to creating the following:

    genocide
    kidnapping
    rapes
    incurabale diseases
    earthquakes that 🤬 hundreds of thousands
    burn victims
    amputees
    air plane crashes
    people born with Cerebral Palsy
    babies born without eyes or outer skin
    etc

    @zombie

    Am I wrong? The Bible 🤬 , after all, admits to CREATING MISFORTUNE and acts that do others great harm.

    SEE the last post none of those things necessarily evil especially the natural phenomenons.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And by the way 🤬 never commands 🤬 .
  • The_Jackal
    The_Jackal Members Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good to see you still misquoting 🤬 @kingblaze84 .
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 On the shoulders of Giants and Elders in history UniverseMembers Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good and evil is not the correct wording but function and dysfunction. Meaning the logical side not the right brain.

    The hebrew people were concrete people meaning nothing they said was abstract. It was against their culture. While the Greeks were abstract speakers.
  • LUClEN
    LUClEN Absence makes the heart grow fonder of someone else Members Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tell dem already

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