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The "angel" Sammael and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

Arya Tsaddiq
Arya Tsaddiq ShalawamThe Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 2015 in The Social Lounge
I've been reading some documents I've had for some time now....and I came across some interesting things.


This is a part of the pseudepigrapha....
The Third Heaven.

4 1 And I Baruch said, Behold, Lord, Thou didst show me great and wonderful things; and now 2 show me all things for the sake of the Lord. And the angel said to me, Come, let us proceed. (And I proceeded) with the angel from that place about one hundred and eighty-five days' 3 journey. And he showed me a plain and a serpent, which appeared to be two hundred plethra in length. 4 And he showed me Hades, and its appearance was dark and abominable. And I said, 5 Who is this dragon, and who is this monster around him? And the angel said, The dragon is he 6 who eats the bodies of those who spend their life wickedly, and he is nourished by them. And this is Hades, which itself also closely resembles him, in that it also drinks about a cubit from 7 the sea, which does not sink at all. Baruch said, And how (does this happen)? And the angel said, Hearken, the Lord 🤬 made three hundred and sixty rivers, of which the chief of 8 all are Alphias, Abyrus, and the Gericus; and because of these the sea does not sink. And I said, I pray thee show me which is the tree which led Adam astray. And the angel said to me, It is the vine, which the angel Sammael planted, whereat the Lord 🤬 was angry, and He cursed him and his plant, while also on this account He did not permit Adam to touch it, and therefore 9 the devil being envious deceived him through his vine. [And I Baruch said, Since also the vine has been the cause of such great evil, and is under judgment of the curse of 🤬 , and was the 10 destruction of the first created, how is it now so useful? And the angel said, Thou askest aright. When 🤬 caused the deluge upon earth, and destroyed all flesh, and four hundred and nine thousand giants, and the water rose fifteen cubits above the highest mountains, then the water entered into paradise and destroyed every flower; but it removed wholly without the bounds the shoot 11 of the vine and cast it outside. And when the earth appeared out of the water, and Noah came out 12 of the ark, he began to plant of the plants which he found. But he found also the shoot of the vine; and he took it, and was reasoning in himself, What then is it? And I came and spake to 13 him the things concerning it. And he said, Shall I plant it, or what shall I do? Since Adam was destroyed because of it, let me not also meet with the anger of 🤬 because of it. And saying 14 these things he prayed that 🤬 would reveal to him what he should do concerning it. And when he had completed the prayer which lasted forty days, and having besought many things and wept, 15 he said: Lord, I entreat thee to reveal to me what I shall do concerning this plant. But 🤬 sent his angel Sarasael, and said to him, Arise, Noah, and plant the shoot of the vine, for thus saith the Lord : Its bitterness shall be changed into sweetness, and its curse shall become a blessing, and that which is produced from it shall become the blood of 🤬 ; and as through it the human race obtained condemnation, so again through Jesus Christ the Immanuel will they receive in Him the 16 upward calling, and the entry into paradise]. Know therefore, 0 Baruch, that as Adam through this very tree obtained condemnation, and was divested of the glory of 🤬 , so also the men who now drink insatiably the wine which is begotten of it, transgress worse than Adam, and are far from the 17 glory of 🤬 , and are surrendering themselves to the eternal fire. For (no) good comes through it. For those who drink it to surfeit do these things: neither does a brother pity his brother, nor a father his son, nor children their parents, but from the drinking of wine come all evils, such as murders, adulteries, fornications, perjuries, thefts, and such like. And nothing good is established by it.

So that tree was not put there by The Most High during creation....

This is what Wikipedia has to say about the same "angel"....

Samael (Hebrew: סמאל‎, "Venom of 🤬 "[1] or "Poison of 🤬 ," also Sammael or Samil)[2][3][4] is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is accuser (devil), seducer and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. Rabbinical writings describe Samael as the guardian angel of Esau and a patron of Edom (or, the Roman empire).

Esau huh?

2 esdras 6:9

[9] For Esau is the end of this age, and Jacob is the beginning of the age that follows


Obadiah 1:3-6

3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground? 4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord. 5 If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes? 6 How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!


Lets start there.....
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Comments

  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Edom is not the roman empire edom was In the middle east.
  • The_Jackal
    The_Jackal Members Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    Edom is not the roman empire edom was In the middle east.

    This actually supposed to have been south of Judea
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    zzombie wrote: »
    Edom is not the roman empire edom was In the middle east.

    That wasn't the point I was making. You're technically right but there is a connection. That I'd another discussion however
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And I said, I pray thee show me which is the tree which led Adam astray. And the angel said to me, It is the vine, which the angel Sammael planted, whereat the Lord 🤬 was angry, and He cursed him and his plant, while also on this account He did not permit Adam to touch it, and therefore 9 the devil being envious deceived him through his vine
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    More history on Sammael....

    From the Jewishencylopedia.com



    SAMAEL:












    Table of Contents
    Samael in the History of Mankind.
    In the Cabala.

    Prince of the demons, and an important figure both in Talmudic and in post-Talmudic literature, where he appears as accuser, seducer, and destroyer. His name is etymologized as = "the venom of 🤬 ," since he is identical with the angel of death (Targ. Yer. to Gen. iii. 6; see also Death, Angel of), who slays men with a drop of poison ('Ab. Zarah 20b; Kohut, "Angelologie und Dämonologie," pp. 69, 71). It is possible, however, that the name is derived from that of the Syrian 🤬 Shemal (Bousset, "Religion," p. 242).

    Samael is the "chief of Satans" (Deut. R. xi. 9; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 125), quite in the sense of "the prince of the devils" mentioned in Matt. ix. 34; but, on the other hand, he is "the great prince in heaven." (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., beginning), who rules over angels and powers (ib.; Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2). As the incarnation of evil he is the celestial patron of the sinful empire of Rome, with which Edom and Esau are identified (Tan. on Gen. xxxii. 35; Jellinek, l.c. vi. 31, 109, etc.). He flies through the air like a bird (Targ. to Job xxviii. 7), and, while the ḥayyot and ofannim have only six wings, he has twelve, and commands a whole army of demons (Pirḳe R. El. xiii.). In so far as he is identified with the serpent ("J. Q. R." vi. 12), with carnal desire (Yeẓer ha-Ra'), and with the angel of death, all legends associated with Satan refer equally to him, while as a miscreant he is compared to Belial ( = "worthless"; see collection of material in Bousset, "Antichrist," pp. 99-101).

    All these descriptions of Samael show that he was regarded simply as the principle of evil that brought upon Israel and Judah every misfortune that befell them. Even at the creation of the world he was Lucifer, who ever sought evil and who began his malignant activity with Adam. His opponent is Michael, who represents the beneficent principle, and who frequently comes into conflict with him (comp. Jew. Encyc. viii. 536 et seq.; Lucken, "Michael," pp. 22 et seq.).

    Samael in the History of Mankind.

    The evil nature of Samael may be illustrated by a number of examples. He and his demonic host descended from heaven to seduce the first human pair (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., beginning; Yalḳ. Gen. i. 25), and for this purpose he planted the vine, the forbidden tree of paradise (Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, iv.). He was himself the serpent, whose form he merely assumed (ib. ix.; "J. Q. R." vi. 328), and was one of the leaders of the angels who married the daughters of men (Gen. vi. 1-4), thus being partially responsible for the fall of the angels (Enoch vi., in Kautzsch, "Apokryphen," ii. 238 et seq.; Lucken, l.c. p. 29). His former wife was Lilith (Jellinek, l.c. vi. 109). He endeavored to persuade Abraham not to offer up Isaac, and, failing in his purpose, he caused the death of Sarah by carrying the news of the sacrifice to her (Gen. R. lvi. 4; Sanh. 89a et passim; Pirḳe R. El. xxxii.). He wrestled with Jacob (Gen. R. lxxvii. and parallels), and also took part in the affair of Tamar (Soṭah 10b). He brought accusations against the Israelites when 🤬 was about to lead them out of Egypt (Ex. R. xxi. 7; Bacher, "Ag. Pal. Amor." i. 25, 473), and was jubilant at the death of Moses because the latter had brought the Torah (Deut. R. xi. 9; Jellinek, l.c. i. 12 et passim). Entering into King Manasseh, Samael caused the martyrdom of the prophet Isaiah (Martyrdom of Isaiah, i., in Kautzsch, l.c. ii. 124); and he considered himself victorious over Michael when 🤬 decided that the ten pious scholars during the reign of Hadrian must suffer death (Jellinek, l.c. ii. 66, iii. 87, vi. 31). On the Day of Atonement, however, Israel has no fear of him (Lev. R. xxi. 4).

    In the Cabala.

    In the quotations from the Slavonic Book of Enoch (vi.) Samael is represented as a prince of the demons and a magician. He is, therefore, frequently mentioned in the cabalistic writings of the Middle Ages, from which Eisenmenger compiled a rich collection of passages ("Entdecktes Judenthum," i. 826 et seq.), to which must be added those in Schwab's "Vocabulaire de l'Angélologie" (p. 199). As lord of the demons, Samael is regarded as a magic being, and must be considered in the preparation of amulets, although there is no agreement as to his power and activity. He presides over the second "teḳufah" (solstice) and the west wind of the fourth teḳufah, as well as the third day of the week ("Sefer Raziel," 6a, 40b, 41b; see also Schwab, l.c.). In Hebrew amulets Samael is represented as the angel of death ("🤬 de Numismatique," 1892, pp. 246, 251). Eve is supposed to have become pregnant by him (Targ. Yer. to Gen. iv. 1); and the cabalists add many details to this legend (Eisenmenger, l.c. i. 832 et seq.). The spot in the moon is supposed to have been caused by the filth of Samael (Menahem of Recanati, p. 140, c. 2).

    Bibliography:Eisenmenger, Entdecktes Judenthum, i. 826-838;
    Brecher, Das Transcendentale, Magie, und Magische Heilarten in Talmud, pp. 40-44, Vienna, 1850;
    Kohut, Angelologie und Dämonologie, pp. 62-72, Leipsic, 1866;
    Hamburger, R. B. T. i. 897, ii. 1060;
    Hastings, Dict. Bible, iv. 407-412;
    Schwab, Vocabulaire de l'Angélologie, p. 199, Paris, 1897;
    Bousset, Der Antichrist, Göttingen, 1895;
    idem, Religion des Judenthums im Neutestamentlichen Zeitalter, pp. 242, 329, Berlin, 1903;
    Lucken, Michael, Göttingen, 1895, Index;
    Weber, Jüdische Theologie, Index, 2d ed., Leipsic, 1897;
    Stave, Ueber den Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum, pp, 236 et seq., Haarlem, 1898;
    Moritz Friedländer, Der Antichrist in den Vorchristlichen Jüdischen Quellen, Göttingen, 1901.


  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 On the shoulders of Giants and Elders in history UniverseMembers Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting and that's the real name of Satan and I will research later.
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Interesting and that's the real name of Satan and I will research later.

    Constantine knew what he was doing at the Council of Nicea.....a lot of these books that the decided were "non-canonical" in fact have a lot of truth in them when paired with the scripture we widely accept.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls also have some of this truth in them.
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 On the shoulders of Giants and Elders in history UniverseMembers Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Interesting and that's the real name of Satan and I will research later.

    Constantine knew what he was doing at the Council of Nicea.....a lot of these books that the decided were "non-canonical" in fact have a lot of truth in them when paired with the scripture we widely accept.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls also have some of this truth in them.

    Constatine didn't really decide which books there was another council and it was decided later. The nicea council was Jesus divinity and his relationship with Yahweh and if he was the same level as the father or lower.
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Interesting and that's the real name of Satan and I will research later.

    Constantine knew what he was doing at the Council of Nicea.....a lot of these books that the decided were "non-canonical" in fact have a lot of truth in them when paired with the scripture we widely accept.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls also have some of this truth in them.

    Constatine didn't really decide which books there was another council and it was decided later. The nicea council was Jesus divinity and his relationship with Yahweh and if he was the same level as the father or lower.

    That's true, but they set the precedent as to what the core doctrine of "Christianity" should be. This lead to later changes to the original scriptures.

  • Lab Baby
    Lab Baby Parts Unknown via BrooklynMembers Posts: 8,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GOAT'd. I learned about this a year or so back. From what I learned, Samael was the original serpent in the garden of Eden that Satan rode on to seduce Eve. He was also the angel that came down to stop Abraham from sacrificing his son, and the angel that wrestled with David (I think). He was also seen by Enoch and Moses if I'm not mistaken. To my understanding, Samael was an ambivalent angel that did 🤬 's will, sort of like his hitman. I find it odd that such a prominent figure in the Jewish tradition has been virtually absent from the bible.
  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not actually a tree it's satan........Tree also meansor described a Person in hebrew, Hebrew Strong is a great tool and learning and understanding Hebrew helps also
  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yet another name that cannot possibly refer to both Satan and Lucifer. They are not the same entity.The book of Job is proof enough that Satan was and is still an angel. The story of Lucifer is much different. Lucifer was an angel of music, not adversity as Satan was.

    Also, the devil did not fall from grace until after creation. So there's no way that the serpent was the devil in disguise. And if it were, why would G-d have punished all serpents for the actions of an imposter?

    It doesn't add up when you try to force all of these names onto the same person.
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    waterproof wrote: »
    The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not actually a tree it's satan........Tree also meansor described a Person in hebrew, Hebrew Strong is a great tool and learning and understanding Hebrew helps also


    If this is going where I think you are...then that sounds like a Kabbalah lesson....

    So if the tree isn't actually a tree and is Satan....what does this mean?...

    5 For 🤬 doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    Gen 3:5-6
  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    waterproof wrote: »
    The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not actually a tree it's satan........Tree also meansor described a Person in hebrew, Hebrew Strong is a great tool and learning and understanding Hebrew helps also


    If this is going where I think you are...then that sounds like a Kabbalah lesson....

    So if the tree isn't actually a tree and is Satan....what does this mean?...

    5 For 🤬 doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    Gen 3:5-6

    It's not Kabbalah lesson at all. this is Adamic Shemetic Hebraic right here Achi! @Judge_Judah

    The word tree is Hebrew word # 6086: `ets (ates); a tree (from its firmness) from # 6095:`atsah (aw-tsaw'); a primitive root; properly, to fasten (or make firm), ie: to close the eyes. figuratively: The spine giving firmness to the body (The body is the trunk, and the arms and legs are the limbs).

    And 🤬 uses the word "trees" symbolically in the scriptures to mean People both good and bad. And below is just one example of 'trees' being used symbolically for people:

    Isaiah 61:1-3
    1 The Spirit of the Lord 🤬 is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our 🤬 ; to comfort all that mourn;
    3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (KJV)

    Back to Genesis:

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, 🤬 hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    The phrase fruit of the tree is Hebrew word # 6529 periy- fruit, in a wide sense: a) fruit, produce (of the ground), or b) fruit, offspring, children, progeny ( used of the 🤬 ), or figuratively c) fruit (of actions). The phrase eat of it is Hebrew word #398; 'akal (aw-kal'); This word has many uses, among which, one use means to lay with a woman (which is a sexual act) touch is Hebrew word # 5060; naga` (naw-gah'); Properly, to touch, ie: to lay the hand upon (for any purpose); euphemism for: to lie with a woman.

  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    waterproof wrote: »
    The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not actually a tree it's satan........Tree also meansor described a Person in hebrew, Hebrew Strong is a great tool and learning and understanding Hebrew helps also


    If this is going where I think you are...then that sounds like a Kabbalah lesson....

    So if the tree isn't actually a tree and is Satan....what does this mean?...

    5 For 🤬 doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    Gen 3:5-6

    @Judge_Judah

    Nowhere in 🤬 's Word does it say that Adam and Eve ate an apple!

    Simply eating an apple does not do this to anyone! Fruit does not make one aware or conscious of whether they have clothes on or not.
    8 And they heard the voice of the LORD 🤬 walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD 🤬 amongst the trees of the garden.
    9 And the LORD 🤬 called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
    10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
    12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
    13 And the LORD 🤬 said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled*1 me, and I did eat. (KJV)

    In Strong's, #398 the term "eat" means to eat, also to lay. The term "touch" in Strong's is #5060 which means naga, to touch, also to have sexual intercourse. Both terms had and have sexual connotations to them.

    Beguiled used in this text is the same as "seduced." Furthermore, Scripture says Cain "was of that wicked one" he was a son of Satan's through the seduction of Eve. The term "of" is the same that means offspring. Neither is Cain listed anywhere in the descendents of Adam which strongly indicates Cain was not his son. The official beginning of the wheat and the tares began with Eve. The wheat AND the tares.

    The tree of knowledge was the means to sexual knowledge they received from Lucifer. Knowledge is to "know." Knowing means to perceive, experience, learn. It is also used as an euphemism of "to know someone" sexually as when Adam "knew" his wife. The terms eat, touch, and know are often used in Biblical lingo for sexual relations. Lucifer was the way of knowing good and evil. He was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil because through him they would learn evil, they would perceive evil, and they would experience it.
    Who was the tree of life in the Garden of Eden? Christ was. Who was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Lucifer. How do we 'eat of the tree of life?" We commune with Him. We are never to commune with Lucifer, and in this instance he seduced Eve, impregnated her, and began his own genealogical offspring and seedline on this earth that is part of us today.
  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ^^^
    Ignoring the part where Adam "ate" the "fruit" too.

    Explain that.
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    See...that's what I was saying. Either 4 Baruch which I posted in the OP is incorrect and not an inspired text.... It's true and the doctrine we are discussing now is coming from somewhere else....


    4 Baruch gives a clear understanding of how the tree got there....and what it did.

    Now what you said sounds like Gnostic, kabbalistic interpretation....

    Here is a similar lecture to what you just posted....
    We study the Kabbalah in order for us to go deeper in our understanding of the scriptures. Scriptures can aid us in our psychological revolution to come out of the painful circumstances within which humanity has been submerged.

    The sad truth is that, as much of an optimist as we may be, death is inevitable and suffering is a fact of our daily existence. We live in times of incredible uncertainty, with an ever growing number of terrifying threats surrounding us. From day to day and year to year, our circumstances appear to grow more desperate. All of us would love to find some solace, some respite from the terrors that hunt us during the long days and long nights. In spirituality, we pray and hope for solace, a place of safety, but unfortunately in these times when we seek out spiritual guidance and aid, oftentimes our suffering becomes more intense because many spiritual guides who proclaim themselves to be prophets or otherwise spiritually inspired or in fact fooled, deluded, confused. Therefore, we cannot rely upon anyone but ourselves.

    The Kabbalah is an ancient science that reveals the underlying structures and mysteries in every great religion throughout time and space. The Kabbalah is not the property of a particular group, although in this time it is claimed as such. In fact, the Kabbalah is the divine birthright, the divine heritage of all humanity, and thus it must be known by everyone if we seek to escape suffering and return back to Eden.

    Eden is a Hebrew word that means “bliss” or “pleasure,” and as you have learned if you listened to or studied the lectures that have been coming for the last few months, this word Eden has many levels of application. In synthesis Eden refers to a state of Consciousness that is beyond our current state, a state of Consciousness within which mankind can communicate with 🤬 . This is symbolized in the first book of Kabbalah called Genesis or Bereshit, when humanity existed in a state of bliss called Eden, symbolized as a beautiful garden in which there is no death, no suffering, but only happiness. We all long to return to that, to once again have that blissfulness in our existence, and so we study this myth.

    The story of Adam, Eve, and the Serpent is a form of myth. It is not a literal story. Unfortunately, many in these times read these biblical and scriptural stories and take them literally, and they miss the point. These stories are Kabbalistic, meaning that they hide a greater truth. They hide a mystery that one enters by degrees, by stages, little by little, in accordance to what one earns. The myths and stories of the Bible and all the great religions hide levels of meaning, and we 🤬 into those levels according to our own state of consciousness. In other words, to understand the myth of Eden, we must enter Eden. To enter into and understand the deeper levels of Eden, we must enter those deeper levels consciously, as a mind, as a heart, as a person. This is something that we have to experience. It has has nothing to do with belief, neither it has anything to do with patrimony or inheritance. You cannot inherit the Kabbalah. You cannot inherit Eden. It arrives as a state of Consciousness that is produced by cause and effect within oneself. It does not arise outside, it arises within. The same is true with all the other great mysteries. They are hidden in the Bible and the scriptures of all religions.

    Sinner-EveThis myth or story of Eve and Adam in the Garden is symbolic of the causes that produced our current situation. Humanity was kicked out of Eden. We do not live in Eden. In fact, most people do not even really know what Eden is, while the rest do not believe in it. That is how far we have gone. We do not even believe that there is a state of Consciousness better than the one we have now. This is a sad truth. Fortunately, the science exists for us to return to that Edenic state and experience it.

    When we study the myth, we see the primary elements are a man and a woman, two trees and a serpent. These elements are divine archetypes, very deep and rich symbols that represent many aspects, not only of nature outside but the nature inside of us. Throughout the many lectures and books of the Gnostic tradition, these levels are explored so that we can start to understand them in ourselves. This kind of investigation is not given for entertainment. This kind of wisdom is not given just to be interesting or to be clever. We study this material because we want to return to Eden. In order to do this we need to recognize Adam, Eve, the trees, and the serpent are symbols of what is inside of us, and we have to change the situation that is happening in us from day to day.

    When Eve is tempted by the serpent, this relates to an event from long ago but also - and more importantly - relates to our behavior today. This is what we discussed in many of the recent lectures about the garden of Eden and the Tree of Knowledge. The axis around which this entire myth rotates is the serpent. Any of us who have a background in any kind of religion, particularly Judaic or Christian, we know that there is always a “bad guy,” and we like to blame the bad guy. We like to avoid our own responsibility and point the blame at someone else. So most of the time when we study religion, particularly if we grew up in Judaic or Christian tradition, we like to blame “Satan” or the devil. And we think that this figure, this bad guy, is always outside of us.

    We always blame an outside force, but the fact is that the devil is within. We suffer because of our actions; we suffer because of our mistakes. We receive what we are due. This is stated clearly in every religion: that every man will receive according to his works. We reap what we sow. There is no avoiding this fact, although we do our best to avoid it.

    Everyone blames the serpent depicted in the Bible, but they should not. This is one of the many misinterpretations propagated by many groups, and has given rise to tremendous misunderstanding of the great religions. In reality, Christianity and Judaism are beautiful religions. They contain tremendous beauty and many truths, but unfortunately they have also been perverted, twisted, for the convenience of our minds.



    There is more here

    http://gnosticteachings.org/the-teachings-of-gnosis/lectures-by-gnostic-instructors/708-sons-of-samael.html
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 On the shoulders of Giants and Elders in history UniverseMembers Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Ajackson17 wrote: »
    Interesting and that's the real name of Satan and I will research later.

    Constantine knew what he was doing at the Council of Nicea.....a lot of these books that the decided were "non-canonical" in fact have a lot of truth in them when paired with the scripture we widely accept.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls also have some of this truth in them.

    Constatine didn't really decide which books there was another council and it was decided later. The nicea council was Jesus divinity and his relationship with Yahweh and if he was the same level as the father or lower.

    That's true, but they set the precedent as to what the core doctrine of "Christianity" should be. This lead to later changes to the original scriptures.

    True, true
  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ^^^
    Ignoring the part where Adam "ate" the "fruit" too.

    Explain that.

    the fruit is the knowledge and Eve received the Knowledge from Satan she had the fruit so he took the fruit from her anything else
  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've been reading some documents I've had for some time now....and I came across some interesting things.


    This is a part of the pseudepigrapha....
    The Third Heaven.

    4 1 And I Baruch said, Behold, Lord, Thou didst show me great and wonderful things; and now 2 show me all things for the sake of the Lord. And the angel said to me, Come, let us proceed. (And I proceeded) with the angel from that place about one hundred and eighty-five days' 3 journey. And he showed me a plain and a serpent, which appeared to be two hundred plethra in length. 4 And he showed me Hades, and its appearance was dark and abominable. And I said, 5 Who is this dragon, and who is this monster around him? And the angel said, The dragon is he 6 who eats the bodies of those who spend their life wickedly, and he is nourished by them. And this is Hades, which itself also closely resembles him, in that it also drinks about a cubit from 7 the sea, which does not sink at all. Baruch said, And how (does this happen)? And the angel said, Hearken, the Lord 🤬 made three hundred and sixty rivers, of which the chief of 8 all are Alphias, Abyrus, and the Gericus; and because of these the sea does not sink. And I said, I pray thee show me which is the tree which led Adam astray. And the angel said to me, It is the vine, which the angel Sammael planted, whereat the Lord 🤬 was angry, and He cursed him and his plant, while also on this account He did not permit Adam to touch it, and therefore 9 the devil being envious deceived him through his vine. [And I Baruch said, Since also the vine has been the cause of such great evil, and is under judgment of the curse of 🤬 , and was the 10 destruction of the first created, how is it now so useful? And the angel said, Thou askest aright. When 🤬 caused the deluge upon earth, and destroyed all flesh, and four hundred and nine thousand giants, and the water rose fifteen cubits above the highest mountains, then the water entered into paradise and destroyed every flower; but it removed wholly without the bounds the shoot 11 of the vine and cast it outside. And when the earth appeared out of the water, and Noah came out 12 of the ark, he began to plant of the plants which he found. But he found also the shoot of the vine; and he took it, and was reasoning in himself, What then is it? And I came and spake to 13 him the things concerning it. And he said, Shall I plant it, or what shall I do? Since Adam was destroyed because of it, let me not also meet with the anger of 🤬 because of it. And saying 14 these things he prayed that 🤬 would reveal to him what he should do concerning it. And when he had completed the prayer which lasted forty days, and having besought many things and wept, 15 he said: Lord, I entreat thee to reveal to me what I shall do concerning this plant. But 🤬 sent his angel Sarasael, and said to him, Arise, Noah, and plant the shoot of the vine, for thus saith the Lord : Its bitterness shall be changed into sweetness, and its curse shall become a blessing, and that which is produced from it shall become the blood of 🤬 ; and as through it the human race obtained condemnation, so again through Jesus Christ the Immanuel will they receive in Him the 16 upward calling, and the entry into paradise]. Know therefore, 0 Baruch, that as Adam through this very tree obtained condemnation, and was divested of the glory of 🤬 , so also the men who now drink insatiably the wine which is begotten of it, transgress worse than Adam, and are far from the 17 glory of 🤬 , and are surrendering themselves to the eternal fire. For (no) good comes through it. For those who drink it to surfeit do these things: neither does a brother pity his brother, nor a father his son, nor children their parents, but from the drinking of wine come all evils, such as murders, adulteries, fornications, perjuries, thefts, and such like. And nothing good is established by it.

    So that tree was not put there by The Most High during creation....

    This is what Wikipedia has to say about the same "angel"....

    Samael (Hebrew: סמאל‎, "Venom of 🤬 "[1] or "Poison of 🤬 ," also Sammael or Samil)[2][3][4] is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is accuser (devil), seducer and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. Rabbinical writings describe Samael as the guardian angel of Esau and a patron of Edom (or, the Roman empire).

    Esau huh?

    2 esdras 6:9

    [9] For Esau is the end of this age, and Jacob is the beginning of the age that follows


    Obadiah 1:3-6

    3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground? 4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord. 5 If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes? 6 How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!


    Lets start there.....

    Naw the tree was not put there during the creation. the tree came there on it's on, Satan can roam anywhere he want's on earth
  • Ajackson17
    Ajackson17 On the shoulders of Giants and Elders in history UniverseMembers Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The twa people have a similar story but the woman actually did eat and it was a pregnant woman.
  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    waterproof wrote: »
    ^^^
    Ignoring the part where Adam "ate" the "fruit" too.

    Explain that.

    the fruit is the knowledge and Eve received the Knowledge from Satan she had the fruit so he took the fruit from her anything else

    So when Eve "ate the fruit", she was getting 🤬 by Satan.

    But when Adam "ate the fruit", he was getting Satan's sloppy seconds?

    That's disgusting.
  • Arya Tsaddiq
    Arya Tsaddiq Shalawam The Daughter of BabylonMembers Posts: 15,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    waterproof wrote: »
    ^^^
    Ignoring the part where Adam "ate" the "fruit" too.

    Explain that.

    the fruit is the knowledge and Eve received the Knowledge from Satan she had the fruit so he took the fruit from her anything else

    So when Eve "ate the fruit", she was getting 🤬 by Satan.

    But when Adam "ate the fruit", he was getting Satan's sloppy seconds?

    That's disgusting.

    Lol

    The serpents seed is present on the earth today....but not in that manner. There is a tree. And even the book of Enoch speaks of the physical tree....

    http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enochs2.htm
    Chapter 31, XXXI
    1 Adam has life on earth, and I created a garden in Eden in the east, that he should observe the testament and keep the command.

    2 I made the heavens open to him, that he should see the angels singing the song of victory, and the gloomless light.

    3 And he was continuously in paradise, and the devil understood that I wanted to create another world, because Adam was lord on earth, to rule and control it.

    4 The devil is the evil spirit of the lower places, as a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens as his name was Satanail (Satan), thus he became different from the angels, (but his nature) did not change (his) intelligence as far as (his) understanding of righteous and sinful (things).

    5 And he understood his condemnation and the sin which he had sinned before, therefore he conceived thought against Adam, in such form he entered and seduced Eva (Eve), but did not touch Adam.

    6 But I cursed ignorance, but what I had blessed previously, those I did not curse, I cursed not man, nor the earth, nor other creatures, but man’s evil fruit, and his works


    This holds up when you look at this 4 Baruch 4...

    http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/3Baruch.html


    8 all are Alphias, Abyrus, and the Gericus; and because of these the sea does not sink. And I said, I pray thee show me which is the tree which led Adam astray. And the angel said to me, It is the vine, which the angel Sammael planted, whereat the Lord 🤬 was angry, and He cursed him and his plant, while also on this account He did not permit Adam to touch it, and therefore 9 the devil being envious deceived him through his vine.



    And the rest of that fourth chapter coincides what what was in the book of Enoch...


    I Baruch said, Since also the vine has been the cause of such great evil, and is under judgment of the curse of 🤬 , and was the 10 destruction of the first created, how is it now so useful
    ? And the angel said, Thou askest aright. When 🤬 caused the deluge upon earth, and destroyed all flesh, and four hundred and nine thousand giants, and the water rose fifteen cubits above the highest mountains, then the water entered into paradise and destroyed every flower; but it removed wholly without the bounds the shoot 11 of the vine and cast it outside. And when the earth appeared out of the water, and Noah came out 12 of the ark, he began to plant of the plants which he found. But he found also the shoot of the vine; and he took it, and was reasoning in himself, What then is it? And I came and spake to 13 him the things concerning it. And he said, Shall I plant it, or what shall I do? Since Adam was destroyed because of it, let me not also meet with the anger of 🤬 because of it. And saying 14 these things he prayed that 🤬 would reveal to him what he should do concerning it. And when he had completed the prayer which lasted forty days, and having besought many things and wept, 15 he said: Lord, I entreat thee to reveal to me what I shall do concerning this plant. But 🤬 sent his angel Sarasael, and said to him, Arise, Noah, and plant the shoot of the vine, for thus saith the Lord : Its bitterness shall be changed into sweetness, and its curse shall become a blessing, and that which is produced from it shall become the blood of 🤬 ; and as through it the human race obtained condemnation, so again through Jesus Christ the Immanuel will they receive in Him the 16 upward calling, and the entry into paradise]. Know therefore, 0 Baruch, that as Adam through this very tree obtained condemnation, and was divested of the glory of 🤬 , so also the men who now drink insatiably the wine which is begotten of it, transgress worse than Adam, and are far from the 17 glory of 🤬 , and are surrendering themselves to the eternal fire. For (no) good comes through it. For those who drink it to surfeit do these things: neither does a brother pity his brother, nor a father his son, nor children their parents, but from the drinking of wine come all evils, such as murders, adulteries, fornications, perjuries, thefts, and such like. And nothing good is established by it.




  • soul rattler
    soul rattler Chief Petty Officer of the Ill Community Naval Command HOOYAHMembers Posts: 18,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Again, this confuses two completely different individuals.

    The individual who fell from grace, the devil, didn't fall until after the universe was created. That includes man.

    You want to suggest that Satan also fell from grace but reasonably understood the consequences of its actions? Problem with that is that Satan, being the logical entity that it is, would have rightly declined to further an unnecessary sequence of events which would lead to man's salvation. Either Satan had enmity with man or it didn't.

    Either way, I see no mention of the serpent being anything more than a cunning creature existing in nature. The retcon in Revelations is just that, retcon.
  • zzombie
    zzombie Members Posts: 11,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2015
    so wait people are actually arguing that the apple was literal an apple or fruit lol