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Libyan force was lesson in limits of U.S. power

janklow
janklow god's lonely man.Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
thought kingblaze might like this one
Libyan force was lesson in limits of U.S. power
It was Ali Zeidan’s first official visit to Washington, and the then-Libyan prime minister had an urgent request: Help us build a new military force, he implored American officials, that can solidify a fledgling government’s legitimacy and buy us time to put our country on track.

Back home, things were going badly. By early 2013, a year and a half after Libyans poured into the streets and declared an end to Moammar Gaddafi’s 40-year rule, the post-revolution dream had veered violently off course.

After widespread looting of Gaddafi’s arsenals, the country was awash in heavy weapons. Militias, reluctant to give up power, had begun to turn their guns on one another. A separatist movement was gaining steam in the country’s east. And in 2012, Islamist militants had killed Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens and three other Americans in Benghazi.

“We would like an alliance against terrorism,” Zeidan told President Obama and other world leaders as he made his case. “That [was] our target,” he said in an interview.

But the Obama administration’s plan to help the country rebuild its military, joined by other NATO governments, instead came to symbolize the shortcomings of the West’s approach to post-revolution Libya. Undermined by insecurity and political divisions there, the flagship assistance program revealed not only the hollowness of Libyan institutions but also how different parts of the U.S. government worked at cross-purposes, dooming a project that Obama ­selected as a personal priority.

Envisioned as a low-cost, low-risk means to stabilize Libya, the planned force became a case study in the limits of American power to shape events following the upheaval of the Arab Spring. It also showed how a protracted planning process and a strong aversion to risk bogged down what was supposed to be Obama’s signature effort in Libya.

U.S. officials spent more than a year trying to develop the military training. But they were ultimately unable to compensate for the many weaknesses in Libya’s fledgling democracy and come up with an efficient way to find, train and equip recruits.

As the country became increasingly consumed by violence — driven by militias and the rise of Islamist groups — the Obama administration quietly abandoned its plan and with it any hope that it could keep a functioning Libyan government intact.

“There was plenty of blame to go around on all sides,” a senior U.S. official said.
big article, much more at link

Comments

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    The African Union tried to warn America......but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......Hillary just had to have her way. And shame on Obama for listening to her. The Libyan disaster is yet another example why I DO NOT trust DUM DUM Americans to make good decisions in that part of the world. When Gaddafi was around, I didn't hear about all these people drowning at sea to escape chaos, not at these numbers.

    American cowboy yankees, MIND YOUR BUSINESS. The world will be less 🤬 up if ya'll do.
  • JokerzWyld
    JokerzWyld Fazer o que você gosta é liberdade. Gostar do que você faz é felicidade Chocolate CityMembers Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    America does not care about another nation's stability. The US has been destabilizing regions for over a century in order to create markets to exploit. Regions hit by war are particularly appealing because they take Aid and Loans at high rates to rebuild infrastructure, or, as in this case, military aid & weapons will be sold at unreasonable prices to people who will go into debt to buy it. This will be like Haiti all over again. They'll give the gov't aid in exchange for the privatization of land and resources that were for the national interest in order to profit Western countries. Tyranny for profit.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    The Libyan disaster is yet another example why I DO NOT trust DUM DUM Americans to make good decisions in that part of the world. When Gaddafi was around, I didn't hear about all these people drowning at sea to escape chaos, not at these numbers.
    it's good you added "at least not in these numbers"

    really, i think this is more about wishful thinking and less about America 🤬 it up, but it's an interesting timeline of how it got messed up. and it's interesting that this administration bashed Bush's for handling Iraq (which was fair for many reasons, just saying) and then basically did the same thing in Libya (albeit with less boots on the ground, i guess).

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    The Libyan disaster is yet another example why I DO NOT trust DUM DUM Americans to make good decisions in that part of the world. When Gaddafi was around, I didn't hear about all these people drowning at sea to escape chaos, not at these numbers.
    it's good you added "at least not in these numbers"

    really, i think this is more about wishful thinking and less about America 🤬 it up, but it's an interesting timeline of how it got messed up. and it's interesting that this administration bashed Bush's for handling Iraq (which was fair for many reasons, just saying) and then basically did the same thing in Libya (albeit with less boots on the ground, i guess).

    Yeah, a serious comparison can be made with Iraq, chaos wise. Too much wishful thinking going on in this current White House, it might be an American leadership trait. Too many people in America have false ideas on what American firepower can really accomplish.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Yeah, a serious comparison can be made with Iraq, chaos wise. Too much wishful thinking going on in this current White House, it might be an American leadership trait. Too many people in America have false ideas on what American firepower can really accomplish.
    well, optimism is a major American trait. sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's bad. but people have been sold on the all-accomplishing might of air power for decades now.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    janklow wrote: »
    Yeah, a serious comparison can be made with Iraq, chaos wise. Too much wishful thinking going on in this current White House, it might be an American leadership trait. Too many people in America have false ideas on what American firepower can really accomplish.
    well, optimism is a major American trait. sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's bad. but people have been sold on the all-accomplishing might of air power for decades now.

    Optimism is an American trait, but sadly so is 🤬 , short term thinking. Gaddafi supported women's rights, education for all, and was kind enough to take care of many refugees from the region. He even gave up his nuclear program.

    And American short term thinking and 🤬 politicians thought it was a good idea to take him out because many people with connections to Al-Qaeda and later on ISIS didn't want Gaddafi around no more lol.....I'm just amazed American officials didn't see this coming, almost the whole world said this would happen. ISIS is said to be slaughtering many civilians and govt officials in Libya today, congrats to America for helping to spread terror groups to yet another nation. A big laugh at Libya's govt today saying the world needs to fight ISIS in Libya. Libya's new govt wanted Gaddafi gone, now they can sit back, smile and enjoy the results. Hillary and Obama should do the same.

    I thought Obama was smarter then that.....oh well.

    http://news.yahoo.com/battles-rival-gunmen-libyas-sirte-132609461.html
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The key question now is, which nation will America help destabilize and 🤬 up next?
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Optimism is an American trait, but sadly so is 🤬 , short term thinking. Gaddafi supported women's rights, education for all, and was kind enough to take care of many refugees from the region. He even gave up his nuclear program.
    well, i think we're overrating Gaddafi on this a little. the guy was still basically a scumfuck dictator at the end of the day.

    but that aside, obviously you do need to plan ahead for the aftermath and this is not something the US can claim a lot of credit for in the aftermath, i suppose.

  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    The key question now is, which nation will America help destabilize and 🤬 up next?
    to be fair, though, i think the most recent destabilized nation wasn't destabilized by America...

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    janklow wrote: »
    The key question now is, which nation will America help destabilize and 🤬 up next?
    to be fair, though, i think the most recent destabilized nation wasn't destabilized by America...

    True, but Syria was destabilized by many other factors aside from Russia and Iran's support for Assad. Frankly, America's many donations to groups with connections to Al-Qaeda did not help the situation either. Turkey and Saudi Arabia get much of the blame for this too, and once again America plays a part in much of these disasters worldwide.

    Even Rand Paul has admitted America is part of the reason ISIS was created in Syria, and we all know what ISIS has done in Syria.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    True, but Syria was destabilized by many other factors aside from Russia and Iran's support for Assad. Frankly, America's many donations to groups with connections to Al-Qaeda did not help the situation either. Turkey and Saudi Arabia get much of the blame for this too, and once again America plays a part in much of these disasters worldwide.
    here's the plot twist: i was not referring to Syria
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    True, but Syria was destabilized by many other factors aside from Russia and Iran's support for Assad. Frankly, America's many donations to groups with connections to Al-Qaeda did not help the situation either. Turkey and Saudi Arabia get much of the blame for this too, and once again America plays a part in much of these disasters worldwide.
    here's the plot twist: i was not referring to Syria

    Ahhh lol. What nation are you speaking of then? Egypt?
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Ahhh lol. What nation are you speaking of then? Egypt?
    Ukraine
    although i will concede if i have messed the timeline up.

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    Ahhh lol. What nation are you speaking of then? Egypt?
    Ukraine
    although i will concede if i have messed the timeline up.

    A lot of blame can go around for Ukraine's situation. Seems nothing has changed over there, especially in Crimea. Sanctions on Russia are beating down their economy but if they can burn 100 tons of western food last week, I guess Russia isn't doing that bad.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    edited August 2015
    A lot of blame can go around for Ukraine's situation. Seems nothing has changed over there, especially in Crimea. Sanctions on Russia are beating down their economy but if they can burn 100 tons of western food last week, I guess Russia isn't doing that bad.
    well, not going down the rabbit hole to portion out every scrap of blame... but i think the country we should be pointing at for making what's going on there happen is good ol' Russia

    (the food burning thing is the kind of spectacle one can always make happen if so inclined)

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    janklow wrote: »
    A lot of blame can go around for Ukraine's situation. Seems nothing has changed over there, especially in Crimea. Sanctions on Russia are beating down their economy but if they can burn 100 tons of western food last week, I guess Russia isn't doing that bad.
    well, not going down the rabbit hole to portion out every scrap of blame... but i think the country we should be pointing at for making what's going on there happen is good ol' Russia

    (the food burning thing is the kind of spectacle one can always make happen if so inclined)

    Well as long as many eastern Ukrainians support Russia taking over Crimea and more, and as long as Ukraine has a 🤬 load of debt and economic problems, there's only so much that can or will be done. I'm sure Ukraine is in better shape then Libya and Iraq though haha
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Well as long as many eastern Ukrainians support Russia taking over Crimea and more, and as long as Ukraine has a 🤬 load of debt and economic problems, there's only so much that can or will be done
    the point was, who destabilized Ukraine?

  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    janklow wrote: »
    Well as long as many eastern Ukrainians support Russia taking over Crimea and more, and as long as Ukraine has a 🤬 load of debt and economic problems, there's only so much that can or will be done
    the point was, who destabilized Ukraine?

    Depends who you ask. Many say America was involved in the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian govt, and many eastern Ukrainians were very 🤬 off at that govt being overthrown like that. Russia definitely plays a role in the nations instability, but since the taking of Crimea by Russia was welcomed by most Crimeans, what can I say?

    The eastern Ukrainians still seem to hate Ukraine's new govt and they still favor Russia from what I've been reading. So if Russia is to be blamed, fine. Eastern Ukrainians get blame too because they are the ones who hate Kiev's govt and are willing to take Russian weapons. Crimea is still in better shape compared to many of the places America has "helped" recently. I'd rather visit Crimea then Tripoli, that's for sure.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Depends who you ask. Many say America was involved in the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian govt, and many eastern Ukrainians were very 🤬 off at that govt being overthrown like that.
    yes, yes, i too have heard Russian propaganda. i just don't actually believe it.
    Russia definitely plays a role in the nations instability, but since the taking of Crimea by Russia was welcomed by most Crimeans, what can I say?
    no, see, Russia LITERALLY invaded Ukraine. it's not a role! it's a thing they have done before! come on, now!
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    janklow wrote: »
    Depends who you ask. Many say America was involved in the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian govt, and many eastern Ukrainians were very 🤬 off at that govt being overthrown like that.
    yes, yes, i too have heard Russian propaganda. i just don't actually believe it.
    Russia definitely plays a role in the nations instability, but since the taking of Crimea by Russia was welcomed by most Crimeans, what can I say?
    no, see, Russia LITERALLY invaded Ukraine. it's not a role! it's a thing they have done before! come on, now!

    Why don't you believe America played a role in Ukraine's elected govt being overthrown? Notice how quick America was to support and give praise to the new govt. I personally believe America did help overthrow Ukraine's elected govt. I've seen several sources and articles that make a great case America was involved.

    And yes I already know Russia sent troops into Ukraine, that's not in debate. The reality however is that many eastern Ukrainians WELCOME Russian troops and Russian support. It's why Putin can visit Crimea and be welcomed as a hero and liberator. Crimea even gave Putin a parade. You think Libya, Afghanistan or Iraq will give Obama and Bush a parade any time soon? 🤬 NO, many Iraqis want American soldiers dead in their streets. Afghan soldiers have killed many American soldiers. Libya is Libya.

    Many eastern Ukrainians want to be away from Ukraine's un-elected govt, blame them too. Don't ignore the hatred many UKRAINIANS have for their own nation's govt.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Why don't you believe America played a role in Ukraine's elected govt being overthrown?
    ...because Russia is the country that LITERALLY sent in military forces.
    trying to say "but but but America played a role" is doing nothing but dodging this point.

    in fact, how about this: when we talk about Afghanistan or Iraq or Libya, we say someone else did something that prompted the military force, and thus they must be blamed.
    And yes I already know Russia sent troops into Ukraine, that's not in debate. The reality however is that many eastern Ukrainians WELCOME Russian troops and Russian support. It's why Putin can visit Crimea and be welcomed as a hero and liberator. Crimea even gave Putin a parade.
    so again, we're making excuses for Russia sending troops into another country?

    the fact of the matter is that current situation in Ukraine has to do with Russia sending in troops under pretty flagrant circumstances. considering that you do not think ANY justification is appropriate for these other conflicts you mention, why do you accept Russia's?
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    janklow wrote: »
    Why don't you believe America played a role in Ukraine's elected govt being overthrown?
    ...because Russia is the country that LITERALLY sent in military forces.
    trying to say "but but but America played a role" is doing nothing but dodging this point.

    in fact, how about this: when we talk about Afghanistan or Iraq or Libya, we say someone else did something that prompted the military force, and thus they must be blamed.
    And yes I already know Russia sent troops into Ukraine, that's not in debate. The reality however is that many eastern Ukrainians WELCOME Russian troops and Russian support. It's why Putin can visit Crimea and be welcomed as a hero and liberator. Crimea even gave Putin a parade.
    so again, we're making excuses for Russia sending troops into another country?

    the fact of the matter is that current situation in Ukraine has to do with Russia sending in troops under pretty flagrant circumstances. considering that you do not think ANY justification is appropriate for these other conflicts you mention, why do you accept Russia's?

    I said in the past America was justified (at first) to go into Afghanistan, and I also said America stayed way too long once the Taliban was removed from power with international and regional support. I always said America should have never entered Iraq or Libya.

    And once again, I said blame Russia all day long, but ALSO blame the eastern Ukrainians who are welcoming Russian soldiers as heroes and saviors. Russia is not doing this alone, there is a TON of support from eastern Ukrainians. And America is not innocent in the Ukrainian crises, if America really did help overthrow the elected Ukrainian govt (as many suspect and as I do believe based on research), then America isn't innocent in Ukraine either.

    The reality is, there is a backlash against the un-elected govt in Ukraine. And word is eastern Ukrainians AND Russian soldiers are gearing up for a big offensive. Be mad at Russia, go right on ahead. But don't ignore the SUPPORT Crimea and other regions are giving to Russia as well. Remember the parades Crimea threw for Putin, and the many cheering crowds there that greeted him.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    And once again, I said blame Russia all day long, but ALSO blame the eastern Ukrainians who are welcoming Russian soldiers as heroes and saviors.
    note that welcoming Russian soldiers is a response to RUSSIA SENDING SOLDIERS INTO UKRAINE. how can welcoming Russian soldiers destabilize a country if Russia doesn't send any?
    Be mad at Russia, go right on ahead.
    see, that's the thing: it's not about being "mad" at Russia. it's about acknowledging what Russia did.

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