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Did we get the best out of Raven

RawAce
RawAce Members Posts: 4,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do you think the character reached as far as it could go or could he have bern more in WWE & TNA
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Comments

  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Sion Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    could have easily been more in wwe
  • jono
    jono Right fist = power, left fist = unity Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WWE didnt. ECW did. WCW didnt, TNA got Raven when he was washed up.
  • RawAce
    RawAce Members Posts: 4,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What do you think he could've done in WWE at the time?

    I used to think he got a bad deal but when I look back I dont think There was room for him to be a top star in WWE.

  • jono
    jono Right fist = power, left fist = unity Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He could have done the same thing they tried with Gangrel and are trying to Bray Wyatt. He was doing a cult leader gimmick in WCW that i thought was really strong and unfairly held back.

    It was like a weaker version of the Dungeon of Doom but they could have put a couple upper midcard players with him and catapulted him to a higher status. But this WCW we talking about here.

    The E could have done the same thing. I heard Raven worked really hard to stay on the roster too and thats one of the reasons he so bitter about WWE right now. he changed his look a little bit and started actually wrestling in his matches all trying to stick around. Vince just didnt know how to use him.

    If he had made it to 2003 with Heyman booking Smackdown he would have been fine but he didnt make it that long.
  • Mally_G
    Mally_G Members Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
    all those tortured and misguided souls that WCW and WWF created by misbooking and underutilizing them, character-wise, could have gone to Raven to extend his character, and breath new life into those characters that creative didn't know what to do with. Look what joining The Flock did for, at least, Billy Kidman. His status on the card went up at least 1-2 notches from the absolute bottom, due to the faction he was a part of, and it allowed him to be more loose with this ability. The scratching 🤬 , I could have done without, but I'm sure that was some sort of joke written into his gimmick. After he broke away from Raven, his solo career saw him win singles titles due to the fans now paying him attention.

    Raven could have been the next Jake Roberts with his psychology in WCW or WWF if they had booked him in proper feuds and actually got over a couple of them. I doubt with the talent pool the WWF had during the Invasion and merger of WCW/WWF/ECW, that he wouldn't have cracked household name status. He had to deal with personalities like Rock, Austin, HHH, Goldberg, Batista, a young RKO and Cena, and others that the WWF were developing into the next crop of stars that were going to entertain for the next 20+ years. Raven was low to mid card status with all that talent stacked at the top of the pile. 🤬 , Steiner couldn't even get higher than midcard, and he was a former multi-time WCW World Champion.

    Granted, it's all politics involved, but if the writers took their time to work with someone willing to give it their all, and have proven they can be a top guy in a company, they should write some damn good material to get the character over and interesting for the fans to like. Even if that meant allowing Raven to cut his own promos, that would have been a start.
  • RawAce
    RawAce Members Posts: 4,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Taking into consideration what u jus said , It made me realize just how much WWE could've gained from restarting ECW.

    Instead they did the silly 🤬 title bit and decided to legitimize it with raven at the end of it while giving him no air time

    Fans were still enchanted with the mystique of ECW and Raven at the top of the card would've been lightning in a bottle.
  • Copper
    Copper The WickMembers Posts: 49,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought the flock gimmick was cool
  • DOPEdweebz
    DOPEdweebz What title? www.facebook.com/DOPEdweebzMembers, Moderators, Writer Posts: 29,364 Regulator
    edited September 2015
    Raven actually made the WCW mid card incredibly strong in 1998 and was US champ (albeit he lost it the next night to Goldberg) and had great matches vs Goldberg, DDP, Benoit, and Saturn. Imo WCW Raven was perfect, they just didnt put him at the next level, but he was like a jesus in ECW.
  • CSOPQ
    CSOPQ Members Posts: 249 ✭✭
    Criminally misused in WWE and I think personal problems along with booking 🤬 his WCW run. I'd like to see a healthy Raven, Saturn and Kidman (I wouldn't be mad at a Stevie Richards addition) challenge the Wyatt's.
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Sion Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    raven's character was one of the coolest things in wcw, just this dark feeling with 🤬 ass out casts having his back

    did yall think they broke up the flock too soon?
  • jono
    jono Right fist = power, left fist = unity Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eh. The Flock was a dope plan but too many nondescript cats in it like Van Hammer and Reese and Sick Boy. If they took time to develop each guy individually, which probably meant shortening to cast, then maybe.

    I liked Kidman and Saturn though. They were Flock standouts.

    The Raven and Richards dynamic is classic though, they tried to do it with 🤬 ass Lodi and it ain't work out but i did like Lodi's sign gimmick
  • TonyDubbz
    TonyDubbz Realest Nigga Livin' Regulator Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I liked TNA Raven
  • thephantasm
    thephantasm Members Posts: 565 ✭✭✭
    His back story was that he was injured before his wrestling debut so he peaked in ECW.
  • Mally_G
    Mally_G Members Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
    His back story was that he was injured before his wrestling debut so he peaked in ECW.

    he was born with one leg/foot longer than the other. so it hurt him to even walk. if you look at his boots, he wears lift boots, extra thick soles for balance.

    jono wrote: »
    Eh. The Flock was a dope plan but too many nondescript cats in it like Van Hammer and Reese and Sick Boy. If they took time to develop each guy individually, which probably meant shortening to cast, then maybe.

    I liked Kidman and Saturn though. They were Flock standouts.

    The Raven and Richards dynamic is classic though, they tried to do it with 🤬 ass Lodi and it ain't work out but i did like Lodi's sign gimmick

    dropping Hammer, Reese, and Sic Boy in the group was to give them something to do. Sic Boy was a project that they saw his physical ability, but he was too green and he couldn't work a match. If you go back and look at his matches, he was reduced to a top rope dropkick, and few hip tosses, and a chinlock. Hammer had always been hack, and was only around because of his look. Reese was just big. Lodi was a knock on Sign Guy Dudley. They had no future, and with Hammer, he had been under contract for years and sat at home.

    Kidman and Saturn had skill and upside, so they were going to excel within the group and once the group disbanded. It would have been great to see Stevie stop being Raven's lackey and forming his own cult, due to him being under Raven for so long and learning how to control and manipulate others. Then seeing the two leaders going head to head on who can manipulate the most to make their cult grow.

    I remember when TNA created a cult for Raven called The Gathering, which included a young CM Punk and Mickey James. Then a few years later, he was given a group called Serotonin with some lost talents like Frankie Kazarian.

    I saw that they were using these cults as a platform for one or two guys to get over, but once they left, the fell back into that hole of the writers not following up.

    Raven could actually wrestle and if the writers in WCW and WWF had allowed him to interact with the top tier, I'm sure he would have impressed and gotten some main event time. Yet, I have this vision of Rock shittin on him during a promo, cutting him off and calling him an emo 🤬 . We saw what Austin did to him during the Alliance angle, basically punked him; and who knows what HHH would have done to him. But it would have just took a glowing endorsement from one of those top dogs to convince creative to give that man something of worth to work with to get him over.
  • Peezy_Jenkins
    Peezy_Jenkins Sion Guests, Members, Writer, Content Producer Posts: 33,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    excellent analysis
  • nc81
    nc81 Members Posts: 251 ✭✭
    What about me what about Raven
  • DOPEdweebz
    DOPEdweebz What title? www.facebook.com/DOPEdweebzMembers, Moderators, Writer Posts: 29,364 Regulator
    Mally_G wrote: »
    His back story was that he was injured before his wrestling debut so he peaked in ECW.

    he was born with one leg/foot longer than the other. so it hurt him to even walk. if you look at his boots, he wears lift boots, extra thick soles for balance.

    jono wrote: »
    Eh. The Flock was a dope plan but too many nondescript cats in it like Van Hammer and Reese and Sick Boy. If they took time to develop each guy individually, which probably meant shortening to cast, then maybe.

    I liked Kidman and Saturn though. They were Flock standouts.

    The Raven and Richards dynamic is classic though, they tried to do it with 🤬 ass Lodi and it ain't work out but i did like Lodi's sign gimmick

    dropping Hammer, Reese, and Sic Boy in the group was to give them something to do. Sic Boy was a project that they saw his physical ability, but he was too green and he couldn't work a match. If you go back and look at his matches, he was reduced to a top rope dropkick, and few hip tosses, and a chinlock. Hammer had always been hack, and was only around because of his look. Reese was just big. Lodi was a knock on Sign Guy Dudley. They had no future, and with Hammer, he had been under contract for years and sat at home.

    Kidman and Saturn had skill and upside, so they were going to excel within the group and once the group disbanded. It would have been great to see Stevie stop being Raven's lackey and forming his own cult, due to him being under Raven for so long and learning how to control and manipulate others. Then seeing the two leaders going head to head on who can manipulate the most to make their cult grow.

    I remember when TNA created a cult for Raven called The Gathering, which included a young CM Punk and Mickey James. Then a few years later, he was given a group called Serotonin with some lost talents like Frankie Kazarian.

    I saw that they were using these cults as a platform for one or two guys to get over, but once they left, the fell back into that hole of the writers not following up.

    Raven could actually wrestle and if the writers in WCW and WWF had allowed him to interact with the top tier, I'm sure he would have impressed and gotten some main event time. Yet, I have this vision of Rock shittin on him during a promo, cutting him off and calling him an emo 🤬 . We saw what Austin did to him during the Alliance angle, basically punked him; and who knows what HHH would have done to him. But it would have just took a glowing endorsement from one of those top dogs to convince creative to give that man something of worth to work with to get him over.
    Speaking of Austin in the alliance, he was low key swagger jacking nWo Hollywood Hogan from 98. Remember when Hogan would beat Horace with his belt strap? Then Austin pulls the same basically with Tazz? Shoutout to the WCW stream, alwaysrocking3.
  • RickyRich
    RickyRich RUCKWORLDMembers Posts: 13,059 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TonyDubbz wrote: »
    I liked TNA Raven

    🤬 ur opinion
  • professor x
    professor x Members Posts: 144 ✭✭
    depends on the promotion we're talking about, considering the fact he was wrestling since the AWA days.
  • Tsotsi Cape Town
    Tsotsi Cape Town Cape Town Members Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, but ECW did
  • Trill Gate$
    Trill Gate$ Members Posts: 552 ✭✭✭✭
    Not at all. WCW had him job out to Goldberg after a great program with DDP for the U.S. belt. I don't think he really didn't 🤬 after that. In WWE he was buried along with the other WCW guys during the invasion angle.
  • jono
    jono Right fist = power, left fist = unity Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not at all. WCW had him job out to Goldberg after a great program with DDP for the U.S. belt. I don't think he really didn't 🤬 after that. In WWE he was buried along with the other WCW guys during the invasion angle.

    Epic program with DDP. They did the Raven's house skits where he would have rich parents and 🤬 lol. It was GOAT. i think Jake Roberts was involved with that too. He was the mentor of both of them or something like that.
  • RawAce
    RawAce Members Posts: 4,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDT vs Diamond Cutter fued
  • JohnBlackwell
    JohnBlackwell Members Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Raven talks a good game, but rarely practices what he preaches.
  • john581
    john581 Members Posts: 75
    Never big on raven
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