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ERIC HOLDER finally fired back at the Republicans at the FAST AND FURIOUS HEARING

waterproof
waterproof Conqueror of SelfOn The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 2012 in The Social Lounge
If you aint in the know about the Fast and Furious hearings in congress it airs on C-span and you can goggle to get the information. But the Republicans is on a witch hunt and for the past few months they be having a field that but yesterday Eric Holder finally let his nuts hang and straighten his back and acted like a MAN.


Yesterday, during his ninth appearance before Congress regarding the “Fast and Furious” debacle (read more about that HERE), Senator John Cornyn, Chair Republican member of the Senate Judiciary Committee asked Attorney General Eric Holder to resign, saying he hoped President Obama would replace him.

AG Holder’s response was epic and a total smack-down of Cornyn. The transcript below is courtesy of Meteor Blades at Daily Kos from his post Sen. Cornyn accuses Eric Holder of perjury, asks him to resign. Gets told to pound sand:

Cornyn: In short, you’ve violated the public trust in my view and, by failing and refusing to perform the duties of your office.
It’s more with sorrow than regret, than with anger, that I would say that you leave me no alternative but to join those who call upon you to resign your office.

Americans deserve an attorney general who will be honest with them. They deserve an attorney general who will uphold the basic standards of politiical independence and accountabilty. You’ve proven time and time again, sadly, that you are unwilling to do so. The American people deserve better. They deserve an attorney general who is accountable and independent. They deserve an attorney general who puts justice before politics.

It’s my sincere hope that President Obama will replace you with someone who is up to that challenge.

[Chairman Patrick Leahy offers a few remarks of support for Holder and then allows him to respond.]

Holder: With all due respect, senator, there is so much that is factually wrong with the premises that you started your statement with, it’s almost breathtaking in its inaccuracy, but, I’ll simply leave it at that.

You know, we want to talk about Fast and Furious, this is, I guess, what, the ninth time?— [turning to an aide who nods "yes"]—this is now the ninth time that I have answered questions before a congressional committee about “Fast and Furious.”

If you want to talk about Fast and Furious, I’m the attorney general that put an end to the misguided tactics that were used in Fast and Furious. An attorney general whom I suppose you would hold in higher regard was briefed on these kinds of tactics in an operation called “Wide Receiver” and did nothing to stop them. Nothing. Three hundred guns, at least, “walked” in that instance.

I’m also the attorney general who called on an inspector general to look into this matter, to investigate this matter. I’m also the attorney general who made personnel changes at ATF and in the U.S. Attorneys office that was involved, have overseen the changes of processes and procedures within ATF to make sure that this doesn’t happen ever again.

So I don’t have any intention of resigning. I heard the White House press officer say yesterday that the president has absolute confidence in me. I don’t have any reason to believe that in fact is not the case.

And in terms of, you know, what is it that we have turned over to Congress in this regard, let’s put something on the record here. … We have collected data from 240 custodians, we have processed millions of electronic records, looked at over 140,000 documents, turned over 7,600 pages. Over the course of 46 separate productions, we have made available people from the department at the highest levels to be interviewed.

And I’ve also said, indicated, I guess, earlier in my testimony, to the extent that all of that is not enough to satisfy the concerns that have been raised in the House committee, I am willing to sit down and talk about the provision of more materials. I have sent letters in that regard, the deputy attorney general has sent letters in that regard, and have not had responses. Which leads me to believe that the desire here is not for an accommodation but for a political point-making. And that is the kind of thing that, you know, you and and your side, I guess, have the ability to do if that’s what you want to do. It is the kind of thing that I think turns people off about Washington. While we have very serious problems, we still have this political gamesmanship.


Cornyn: The problem we have is that you won’t allow Congress to do its job when it comes to oversight and you thwart a legitimate investigation into programs like Fast and Furious.
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Comments

  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    waterproof wrote:
    If you want to talk about Fast and Furious, I’m the attorney general that put an end to the misguided tactics that were used in Fast and Furious. An attorney general whom I suppose you would hold in higher regard was briefed on these kinds of tactics in an operation called “Wide Receiver” and did nothing to stop them. Nothing. Three hundred guns, at least, “walked” in that instance.
    ironically, it's not him supposedly putting a stop to it that they want to talk to him about: it's what happened BEFORE he "put a stop to it." and his "personnel changes" seemed basically to be a combination of "promoting the people in charge of the F&F program i claim i stopped" and "slamming whistleblowers because... well, you can all figure that out."

    plus, when you consider his earlier claims that this is all a) political and b) racism, i don't really see how he presents himself as an honest broker in debating the topic. if he acknowledges a reason for a discussion, why not admit it's NOT all politics?

    short version: 🤬 Eric Holder
  • Swiffness!
    Swiffness! PART OF THE CONSPIRACY Members Posts: 10,128 ✭✭✭✭✭
    waterproof wrote:
    Meteor Blades at Daily Kos

    that's my 🤬

    he's like The Janklow of Daily Kos

  • [Deleted User]
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  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Swiffness! wrote: »
    he's like The Janklow of Daily Kos
    i don't know what this means, so i will assume it means someone is 100% awesome
    also i believe the types of firearms used are also the issue.
    .50 cal sniper rifles AT4's, RPG's etc... flak vest, land mines, grenades...
    not exactly, because the claim here is that it was done to investigate trafficking by individuals ... who are not in a position to buy AT-4s or any RPGs or land mines or grenades at a gun store and then attempt to traffic it, for obvious reasons

    i don't know if they had any .50-caliber rifles in the mix; the ones that get mentioned seem generally to be "yet more semi-auto AK clones"
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  • MrSoutCity
    MrSoutCity Members Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
    also i believe the types of firearms used are also the issue.
    .50 cal sniper rifles AT4's, RPG's etc... flak vest, land mines, grenades...

    Night Vision Goggles... they were equipping the cartels like we equip our military...

    dont make no sense for the average joe mexican to know how to fire a Stinger Missile...

    So them 🤬 was on some Sons Of Anarchy 🤬 then.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    we had a cache bust out here not too long ago that included barret .50 cal sniper rifles...
    well, if there was a bust, then that doesn't sound like firearms being trafficked through F&F, which is really what we're focusing on here.
    also i doubt you are taking into consideration how sensitive these items are. these are controlled items not readily purchased in a gun store. certain types of nvg's etc....
    considering that i'm saying they wouldn't have trafficked things you CAN'T buy in a gun store as an average civilian, i do think i am taking into consideration how sensitive an item is. you're not buying an anti-armor missile or an RPG or a grenade or a land mine and walking into to Mexico for cash; that stuff comes from either corrupt Mexicans and/or Central and South America. whereas you COULD take body armor or night-vision equipment or a .50-caliber rifle down there (in theory) because an American can purchase things like that.

    plus, remember this: NVGs being sold illicitly are a big deal to people who give a 🤬 , but they're not as big a deal to the NEWS MEDIA because you can't shoot a federal agent with them.
    MrSoutCity wrote: »
    So them 🤬 was on some Sons Of Anarchy 🤬 then.
    i assume by this you mean "fictional nonsense"
  • [Deleted User]
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  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    i dont know... just feels like you are arguing with me just for the sake of it...
    well, the main point might be that i'm differentiating from what got trafficked through F&F as opposed to what can get trafficked AT ALL. for example, the .50-caliber rifles are a BIG DEAL when you've got someone on the news screaming about INTERNATIONAL TERROR, but beyond that... and the other stuff that can't be trafficked by a regular guy isn't something F&F should have been playing with, since the idea was to replicate what civilians could do, but you do have people who think i can walk into a gun store and buy grenades and rocket launchers and so on.

    mainly i'm just trying to stay focused on what Holder is being grilled over as opposed to worrying about what the cartels are ending up with. the sad fact is they're always going to get straight-up full-auto guns and other military equipment we send down to the Mexican police/military when those guys sell it or walk with it. is that bad for a lot of reasons, including, like you point out, letting them pass gear like NVGs on? sure, agreed. but Holder's not having all this drama because of NVGs

    also, the following statements are true:
    01. i like to argue
    02. i like to talk and talk and talk about guns
  • jono
    jono Right fist = power, left fist = unity Members Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This whole F&F scandal is being used for political purposes (I know earth shattering news right?).

    Nobody really cares about people who get killed in wayward gun violence because if they did they would probably force states like Arizona (where F&F happens) to actually enforce some type of gun buying limitations.

    F&F is also a small part of the overall Project Gunrunner started in 2006. There are several segments to Gunrunner, F&F is one and another is called "Operation/Project Too Hot To Handle" which is similar to F&F is some ways and operates in the same border states F&F does.

    I can agree F&F should never exist but the concept of capturing, tagging materials and then waiting to see where they pop up on the other side is common practice. Its done with drugs, snitches, even the military does it with informants, the ATF just did it with guns. I also agree that the ATF's ineptitude on the situation is unforgivable but that's the risk you run when your dealing with weapons.

    I often asked myself why was F&F even necessary and I found the answer. It seems several gun shops would be "robbed" and the owners would never list the items stolen, there were also numerous cases of people buying suspicious quantities of weapons without questioning.

    This is all happening because those states didn't enforce any restrictions or surveillance on gun purchasing and buyers. So yes cartels could come over into Arizona, buy large quantities of weapons and bring them back over the border with little issue, 🤬 its been happening for decades! Mexico's cartels aren't new even Nixon tangled with the Southwest Border drug rings.

    This whole ordeal is bigger than Eric Holder and the ATF, its bigger than F&F, its a long persisting problem caused by the over-saturation of weapons in the U.S. Americans sell weapons to Mexico's military and we know that the Cartel recruits Mexican military, therefore they have American weapons. Its not rocket science.

    Holder is being BBQ'd over it because he's an Obama appointment (and because he's the head of the mess at the moment) not because they want to end drug smuggling or the drug wars, there are other things they could do instead of continuously questioning him on this subject. I want Holder grilled on why he doesn't investigate white collar crime like he should but once again no one cares, just leave the good 'ol boys and their guns alone, while everyone else cleans up the mess their making.
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    jono wrote: »
    Nobody really cares about people who get killed in wayward gun violence because if they did they would probably force states like Arizona (where F&F happens) to actually enforce some type of gun buying limitations.
    ...unless they don't feel that the gun-buying limitations are actually relevant to the issues in Mexico. plus, now we have to pretend that one makes a conscious choice between "caring about violence in Mexico" and "caring about gun rights." oddly enough, you CAN do both.
    jono wrote: »
    I often asked myself why was F&F even necessary and I found the answer. It seems several gun shops would be "robbed" and the owners would never list the items stolen, there were also numerous cases of people buying suspicious quantities of weapons without questioning. This is all happening because those states didn't enforce any restrictions or surveillance on gun purchasing and buyers. So yes cartels could come over into Arizona, buy large quantities of weapons and bring them back over the border with little issue, 🤬 its been happening for decades!
    except that this claim doesn't really seem to be supported by the actual numbers. this is why you're probably looking the other way when we're talking about cartels with weapons you CAN'T buy over the counter in the US or when the "guns traced to the US" numbers become mysteriously questionable.

    remember, everyone, the numbers being touted are always firearms being traced to the US OF THOSE SUBMITTED TO THE US TO BE TRACED, not total firearms.

    if the gun shops are being fraudulently "robbed," is the solution not to investigate and prosecute the gun shops as opposed to F&F or additional gun laws? and "suspicious quantities of weapons" without any additional description just sounds like a debate is going to happen regarding "what's a suspicious quantity of weapons?"
    jono wrote: »
    Americans sell weapons to Mexico's military and we know that the Cartel recruits Mexican military, therefore they have American weapons. Its not rocket science.
    what's also not rocket science is understanding that NO regulation that affects Americans buying guns is going to affect weapons leaking from the Mexican military and/or police.

    but in case everyone's fine with Holder so long as this only relates to guns:

    Definitive Proof That Eric Holder Lied to Congress About Obama's Medical Marijuana Crackdown
    Attorney General Eric Holder told the House Judiciary Committee last week that his department was not prosecuting medical marijuana businesses that are in compliance with state law. In the week since, drug reform advocates have culled together an overwhelming amount of evidence that Holder either lied to the committee, or—as seems to have been the case with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearm's "Operation Fast and Furious"—is oblivious to what his department is doing outside Washington, D.C.

    Just to review, here's what Holder told the House Judiciary Committee:

    Asked about what critics have charged is an overly aggressively enforcement campaign and broken administration promises — including in states that have legalized cannabis for medical purposes — Holder denied the charge.

    "This is inconsistent with the little thing called the facts," Holder said in testimony in front of the House Judiciary committee.

    Holder told the committee that the Justice Department is not using "limited resources to go after people acting in conformity with state law."

    "One has to deal with the reality that there are certain people who took advantage of the state law and a different policy that this administration announced...and have come up with ways they are tkaing advantage of those state laws and going beyond what those states have authorized," Holder said.


    That's from Politico. The Washington Times filed a similar dispatch. What Holder said, in other words, isn't up for debate. Neither is the truthiness of what he said: Holder lied.

    Steph Sherer of Americans for Safe Access called Holder out last week. Now here's Eric Sterling pointing out that the DOJ has threatened to prosecute state employees who comply with their states' marijuana laws:

    U.S. Attorneys have threatened state governors that the Justice Department would prosecute state employees who are carrying out state law.

    In June 2011, the threats were so real they worried New Jersey Governor Chris Christie (R), a former U.S. Attorney himself.

    In Delaware, this spring U.S. Attorney Charles Oberly, III, threatened to prosecute state employees while state officials were developing the regulations to fine tune the state law. In that case the Justice Department was trying to prevent any possibility that anyone could be in "conformity" with state law! Governor Jack Markell actually stopped state employees from going forward in the regulation writing process.

    In the adjacent state of Maryland, Gov. Martin O'Malley was so alarmed by Oberly's threat, he announced, before the General Assembly could even mark-up a bill in committee, that he would veto any bill that was sent to him!

    Last September, the BATF, a unit of the Justice Department, advised all federally licensed firearms dealers that it would be a crime if they sold a firearm to anyone they knew was a state-licensed medical marijuana patient.


    In the week since Holder lied, Reuters reported that the Justice Department is using asset forfeiture laws to target landlords of 🤬 shops. If they don't evict medical marijuana outfits, Justice can seize their buildings:

    A civil statute designed primarily to seize the assets of drug trafficking organizations is now being wielded by federal prosecutors in California in an unconventional and little-noticed attack on medical-marijuana shops in the state.

    Prosecutors have brought more than a dozen lawsuits seeking the forfeiture of commercial properties that house marijuana shops. The actions pressure owners to either evict these controversial tenants or face costly legal battles or the loss of their buildings.The goal is to scare owners into cutting their ties to such tenants and to help the Justice Department combat the medical marijuana industry, estimated at $1.7 billion annually, without confronting it head-on with costly and potentially embarrassing criminal prosecutions, industry sources and legal experts said.


    And here's another case in which the Feds shut down a dispensary that local government approved of:

    DEA agents raided the El Camino Wellness Center at 2511 Connie Drive early Monday morning. They also raided the homes of the center’s executive directors, according to a press release from Americans for Safe Access.

    “The community is in shock because El Camino Wellness Center was a model dispensary that had hosted tours of the facility for numerous members of City Council, as well as state and local officials,” according to local ASA representative Courtney Sheats. “There has been nothing clandestine about its operation.”


    Unlike Fast and Furious, Holder isn't claiming that he didn't know about Obama's medical marijuana crackdown when it was happening. It's happening right now, and he says it's not. Amazing.
  • [Deleted User]
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  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    Holder needs to realize he can't be a G like Ollie North.
    well, hell, look at Oliver North: does the average person sit back and recall him as a fine upstanding man who didn't ever commit a crime?

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  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK Issa and the republicans got what they want and wasted time on some 🤬 just to 🤬 with The President of the United States and Eric Holder...........
  • Matt-
    Matt- stew Members Posts: 21,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    waterproof wrote: »
    OK Issa and the republicans got what they want and wasted time on some 🤬 just to 🤬 with The President of the United States and Eric Holder...........

    full disclosure? i thought obama blocked it, citing executive privilege
  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    matt- wrote: »
    waterproof wrote: »
    OK Issa and the republicans got what they want and wasted time on some 🤬 just to 🤬 with The President of the United States and Eric Holder...........

    full disclosure? i thought obama blocked it, citing executive privilege

    @matt yeah but Issa and the republicans voted to hold him in contempt down party lines.

    Holder: House committee’s contempt vote ‘divisive’ and ‘entirely unnecessary’

    Attorney General Eric Holder showed no sign of backing down Wednesday in his escalating battle with House Republicans over his handling of the fallout from the Fast and Furious gun-smuggling investigation. He denounced a House committee's party-line vote to hold him in contempt of Congress as "divisive," "political theater," and "entirely unnecessary."
    In a defiant statement released moments after the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee's 23-17 vote, the nation's top law enforcement officer denied improperly stonewalling the Republican-controlled panel's demands for Justice Department documents and took aim at its chairman, California Republican Darrell Issa.
    "He has chosen to use his authority to take an extraordinary, unprecedented and entirely unnecessary action, intended to provoke an avoidable conflict between Congress and the Executive Branch," Holder said.

    "This divisive action does not help us fix the problems that led to this operation or previous ones and it does nothing to make any of our law enforcement agents safer. It's an election-year tactic intended to distract attention -- and, as a result -- has deflected critical resources from fulfilling what remains my top priority at the Department of Justice: Protecting the American people," Holder charged.Issa met with Holder late Tuesday to find a last-minute path out of the expanding constitutional conflict, but said afterward that they had failed to reach a satisfactory arrangement regarding lawmakers' access to documents connected to Fast and Furious. The operation aimed to track the flow of guns from the United States into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, but many firearms went missing and two turned up at the scene of the killing of Customs and Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

    Republicans have accused Holder of misleading them on what he knew about the operation and when. The attorney general has blamed Republicans for playing politics by rejecting his offers to make some of the materials available. Obama has rejected Republican calls to dismiss Holder.

    "From the beginning, Chairman Issa and certain members of the Committee have made unsubstantiated allegations first, then scrambled for facts to try to justify them later," Holder said in his statement after the committee voted.
    "That might make for good political theater, but it does little to uncover the truth or address the problems associated with this operation and prior ones dating back to the previous Administration," said the attorney general. Holder noted he had ordered a full investigation into Fast and Furious by the Justice Department's inspector general and said it would yield "a tough, independent review" of the failed operation.
    Republican House Speaker John Boehner and House Majority Leader Eric Cantor have said the full House of Representatives will vote to find Holder in contempt of Congress next week "unless the Attorney General reevaluates his choice" and hands over the documents Issa has demanded.

    If the full House approves finding Holder in contempt, the matter would be referred to the Justice Department for possible prosecution. That is unlikely. But the House could take the Administration to court over the issue, which could land the volatile dispute before the Supreme Court.

    Rachel Hartman contributed reporting
  • janklow
    janklow god's lonely man. Members, Moderators Posts: 8,613 Regulator
    waterproof wrote: »
    OK Issa and the republicans got what they want and wasted time on some 🤬 just to 🤬 with The President of the United States and Eric Holder...........
    frankly, if for no other reason than Obama, who opposed Bush's use of executive privilege, now citing executive privilege on this, it should indicate it's not just "some 🤬 "
  • waterproof
    waterproof Conqueror of Self On The Road to ZionMembers Posts: 9,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    janklow wrote: »
    waterproof wrote: »
    OK Issa and the republicans got what they want and wasted time on some 🤬 just to 🤬 with The President of the United States and Eric Holder...........
    frankly, if for no other reason than Obama, who opposed Bush's use of executive privilege, now citing executive privilege on this, it should indicate it's not just "some 🤬 "

    of course President Obama is going to use the executive privilege and say 🤬 YOU..... this is nothing but some grandstanding political theater. I understand an agent was killed but this fast and furious been going on for years if he's about the truth he would of start at the start of the program but no he know because he have to start at Bush admin
  • heyslick
    heyslick Members Posts: 1,179
    WHAT A FREAKING JOKE -yeah! he's gonna be so transparent - hes so damn corrupt and deceitful & so is the AG - but in today's climate of political correctness - any and all criticism is considered racist - so this President and his AG are joined at the hip in all of this deceitfulness - dontcha just love how transparent these hypocrite (s) be - LMAO!




    read some of the comments within this video - there hilarious
  • Jabu_Rule
    Jabu_Rule Members Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2012
    Sounds like this was a sting operation which entails feeding the criminals in order to work your way to the top. Why aren't cops being questioned for selling drugs repeatedly in order to build a conspiracy case?
  • heyslick
    heyslick Members Posts: 1,179
    Listen to this idiot - I'll be nice, Listen to this HYPOCRITE talk out of both sides of his mouth.

  • redhandedbandit
    redhandedbandit Members Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭
    How about the 6 times dubya invoked the exec order heyslick especially about fbi using mob informants who were killing people staying free
  • Matt-
    Matt- stew Members Posts: 21,585 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FuriousOne wrote: »
    Sounds like this was a sting operation which entails feeding the criminals in order to work your way to the top. Why aren't cops being questioned for selling drugs repeatedly in order to build a conspiracy case?

    they probably would if an FDA agent sold drugs to a drug dealer and then that drug dealer used those drugs to 🤬 the officer