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Earliest Reference describes Christ as a "Magician"

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Comments

  • alissowack
    alissowack Members Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭
    alissowack wrote: »
    It would help to understand what was intended by the miracles that Jesus performed. In his ministry, he didn't do these things for entertainment purposes. Jesus was not like..."For my next trick, I'm going to turn water into wine. Don't believe me...just watch." If that was the case, he wouldn't be the only one in the business of magic. He did these things to show he was the Son of 🤬 and came to save the world from sin. His ministry would serve no purpose if it wasn't meant to bring mankind closer to 🤬 . His "magic" would be in vain.

    So when are we gonna see Jesus' next magic trick? 2,000 years later, we still waiting. He can do magic in front of mofos back in the day but when people wana see proof now, we gotta entertain ourselves with David Blaine?

    ...and still he was crucified. The issue isn't with whether Jesus could perform miracles. It was whether he was the Son of 🤬 and he forgave sin. If not, then he is just another "David Blaine".
  • Rubato Garcia
    Rubato Garcia Members Posts: 4,912 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can easily see a 🤬 doing magic tricks getting crucified by the folk back then...hell "witches" were getting burned at the stake in Salem not too long ago.
  • alissowack
    alissowack Members Posts: 1,930 ✭✭✭
    I can easily see a 🤬 doing magic tricks getting crucified by the folk back then...hell "witches" were getting burned at the stake in Salem not too long ago.

    Yeah, but why? If people were simply doing magic for the sake of entertainment, then you have to say that maybe their deaths were a result of it being a very bad performance; that maybe the water into wine trick just got too old too fast. Personally I believe the Salem witch trials were more of a myth but to play along, these witches were not burned for their magic...but for what they represented. They represented an evil that people felt needed to be dealt with.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 2,089
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  • Focal Point
    Focal Point Kushite descent... wandering child from Meru of Old TrentonMembers Posts: 16,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the appropriate word is Alchemist

    I believe alchemy to be a bit different.
  • turqiun
    turqiun Members Posts: 1,491 ✭✭
    Yeah, the whole Christ thing is made up. Just saying....
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    turqiun wrote: »
    Yeah, the whole Christ thing is made up. Just saying....

    Jesus wasn't THE Christ he made himself out to be, so co-sign.
  • kingblaze84
    kingblaze84 Bronx, NY birthplace of hip-hopMembers Posts: 14,288 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the appropriate word is Alchemist

    I believe alchemy to be a bit different.

    Well Jesus allegedly turned water into wine, so he could have been a bit of an alchemist
  • Focal Point
    Focal Point Kushite descent... wandering child from Meru of Old TrentonMembers Posts: 16,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the appropriate word is Alchemist

    I believe alchemy to be a bit different.

    Well Jesus allegedly turned water into wine, so he could have been a bit of an alchemist

    True, alchemy at it's very heart and nature is change
  • PapaDoc223
    PapaDoc223 Brooklyn,NYMembers Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As much of an agnostic i am. Jesus is real cuz Josephus mentioned Jesus as a man who was crucified bu the Romans.
  • Lustchyld
    Lustchyld Members Posts: 987 ✭✭✭✭
    Slight of hand
  • luke1733
    luke1733 Members Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Not surprised at all on this claim on Yeshua/Jesus. They said a lot worse on him and did more too, so. Point is there were many before him that claimed to be Christ and many after him that made the claim, but only one that changed time and everyone recognizes it righteously to be his name (and yes, I know Christ was a title).
  • Focal Point
    Focal Point Kushite descent... wandering child from Meru of Old TrentonMembers Posts: 16,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    luke1733 wrote: »
    Not surprised at all on this claim on Yeshua/Jesus. They said a lot worse on him and did more too, so. Point is there were many before him that claimed to be Christ and many after him that made the claim, but only one that changed time and everyone recognizes it righteously to be his name (and yes, I know Christ was a title).
    Problem is where does the man end and the legend begin. You have a variety of similar events in prior religions
  • luke1733
    luke1733 Members Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    luke1733 wrote: »
    Not surprised at all on this claim on Yeshua/Jesus. They said a lot worse on him and did more too, so. Point is there were many before him that claimed to be Christ and many after him that made the claim, but only one that changed time and everyone recognizes it righteously to be his name (and yes, I know Christ was a title).
    Problem is where does the man end and the legend begin. You have a variety of similar events in prior religions

    Some things are similar and it will be up to you to decide. On another note, a lot of other religions and ancient miracle workers that people say were picked up by Christians and included by christians in myth were never Actual real living people that existed. They also didn't have their histories written down by other nations at the same time stating they saw the same thing (Egypt, Palestine, Iraq, Jerusalem, Ethiopia). For instance the gods of Egypt that have a familiar son of 🤬 relationship was never in the flesh among the people. It was only a story and always a story like the greek gods. It was believed, but nobody ever was Zeus or Cratos. Even All the pharaohs who were worshipped, forced the people to worship themselves as gods. It was not the people's choice.

    Even in Christianity, Jesus's own followers questioned if he was a prophet or the Christ and when he died they were through with him; it wasn't until the resurrection that Christianity's stamp of identity came to be (and resurrection in myths of course were existent in other religions)

    My other question posed is this: If you lived in the year 20ad anywhere in the world and 🤬 spoke from the heavens, tore the clouds apart, raised the dead and had them come back for you to see and brought a man back from the dead who'd been dead 3 days WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO TELL OTHERS AND CONVINCE THEM THAT WHAT YOU SAW WAS REAL----IF YOU TOOK OUT ALL DOUBT AND WERE ABSOLUTELY 1000% POSITIVE THAT WAS 🤬 .

    I'm asking you the question focal point: what would you do? How would you tell your children what you witnessed or convince anyone else?
    Now if, not only you witnessed the events that I wrote in all caps above, 1,000 other people all saw the same thing at the same time and for years lived among each other........HOW COULD THEY PRESERVE WHAT THEY SAW, SO THAT OTHERS MIGHT TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY?

    Now say something similar happened before Christ that occurred 3,000 years or so before Christ when the prophets lived and they saw things that they wanted others to remember: again, HOW WOULD YOU PRESERVE IT?
    Now what if those events from 5,000 years ago aligned perfectly with the events from 3,000 years ago and told a story with even the exact family names that exist to the date 2015 in Egypt,Palestine and Israel to lay claim to those people's descendants and record keeping actually being valid and sensible citizens of the past?
    What more can the people do who witness this after they die to make others believe in what they saw?
    If 🤬 decided to speak the way he wants and leave some type of direction for you to see him but we choose not to---then I guess 🤬 just has to stay visible for people all the time every day in order for us to believe; because the second he leaves there's no way to prove he ever existed to the people who want more.

    I know you don't believe in Christianity in its entirety, but just consider the story: If the angels could be willing to defy the very 🤬 they lived with and knew, what difference would it make for a human to see 🤬 and have him order you around? Now that your mind is open to a thought you've probably never considered let me answer how many might act: People might no longer doubt 🤬 's existence, but that does not mean they would love him or follow him and serve him. So............if 🤬 's purpose is for you to love him and not just believe he exists, then seeing him might not make much of a difference WHEN YOU KNOW you hear his voice in your heart. Every human hears 🤬 's spirit. You know when certain thoughts aren't yours or feelings. You just probably give it a different name.
    So, now that you probably think I'm crazy, I'm done. It's just food for thought. We'll all either be disappointed or surprised when we die.
  • MizuryLillith
    MizuryLillith Lady Radium KELT-2Ab, Andromeda Members Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well. This had potential....
    Then ended abruptly.
  • Melqart
    Melqart Epistemophilic Pronounced Malk-artGuests, Members Posts: 3,679 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mizury wrote: »
    Well. This had potential....
    Then ended abruptly.

    They don't understand the implications, is all.
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